[Senate Hearing 106-900] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] S. Hrg. 106-900 JUVENILE INTERVENTION PROGRAMS THAT WORK ======================================================================= HEARING before the SUBCOMMITTEE ON YOUTH VIOLENCE of the COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY UNITED STATES SENATE ONE HUNDRED SIXTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION on EXAMINING JUVENILE CRIME PREVENTION AND INTERVENTION FUNDING AND STRATEGIES, FOCUSING ON STATE JUVENILE COURT SYSTEM ASSISTANCE, DETENTION SPACE, ALTERNATIVE INTERVENTION PROGRAMS; AND THE BOYS AND GIRLS CLUBS OF AMERICA __________ SEPTEMBER 28, 1999 __________ Serial No. J-106-45 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary __________ U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 69-953 WASHINGTON : 2001 COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah, Chairman STROM THURMOND, South Carolina PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa EDWARD M. KENNEDY, Massachusetts ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania JOSEPH R. BIDEN, Jr., Delaware JON KYL, Arizona HERBERT KOHL, Wisconsin MIKE DeWINE, Ohio DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California JOHN ASHCROFT, Missouri RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD, Wisconsin SPENCER ABRAHAM, Michigan ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York BOB SMITH, New Hampshire Manus Cooney, Chief Counsel and Staff Director Bruce A. Cohen, Minority Chief Counsel ______ Subcommittee on Youth Violence JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama, Chairman BOB SMITH, New Hampshire JOSEPH R. BIDEN, Jr., Delaware JON KYL, Arizona DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California JOHN ASHCROFT, Missouri HERBERT KOHL, Wisconsin Kristi Lee, Chief Counsel Sheryl Walter, Minority Chief Counsel (ii) C O N T E N T S ---------- STATEMENTS OF COMMITTEE MEMBERS Page Sessions, Hon. Jeff, U.S. Senator from the State of Alabama...... 1 Biden, Hon. Joseph R., Jr., U.S. Senator from the State of Delaware....................................................... 3 CHRONOLOGICAL LIST OF WITNESSES Panel consisting of Robbie Callaway, senior vice president, Boys and Girls Clubs of America, Rockville, MD; Robert J. Martin, chief probation officer/coordinator, Mobile County Juvenile Court, Mobile, AL; Clyde McGuire, executive director, Boys and Girls Clubs of South Alabama, Inc., Mobile, AL; and Richard Pounsberry, chief of police, Seaford, DE....................... 5 ALPHABETICAL LIST AND MATERIAL SUBMITTED Callaway, Robbie: Testimony.................................................... 5 Prepared statement........................................... 7 News Article: By Mark E. Vogler, Eagle-Tribune, dated April 9, 1999.......................................... 11 Martin, Robert J.: Testimony.................................................... 13 Prepared statement........................................... 14 McGuire, Clyde: Testimony.................................................... 15 Prepared statement........................................... 17 Pounsberry, Richard: Testimony.................................................... 18 Prepared statement........................................... 19 JUVENILE INTERVENTION PROGRAMS THAT WORK ---------- TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 1999 U.S. Senate, Subcommittee on Youth Violence, Committee on the Judiciary, Washington, DC. The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:02 p.m., in room SD-226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Jeff Sessions (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. Also present: Senator Biden. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JEFF SESSIONS, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF ALABAMA Senator Sessions. The subcommittee will come to order. For the last 3 years, as chairman of the Youth Violence Subcommittee, I have advocated the need for the Federal Government to assist the State juvenile court system by providing much needed money for detention space, alternative intervention programs, and other such activities. And I have been met sometimes with resistance from those who say the answer to juvenile crime is more prevention programs. I really am not opposed to prevention programs, but I believe many of these programs that work through the juvenile court system are indeed the best prevention programs that you can have, and indeed we have about $4.2 billion being spent through a multitude of different agencies on youth crime prevention programs. But I do believe that prevention is good. At a hearing before this committee, GAO has reported that we did spend $4.2 billion on prevention programs last year. Many of those they determined were duplicative or lacked coordination. Moreover, in a DOJ-commissioned study, it was concluded that most crime prevention funds are being spent where they are needed least. That was a Department of Justice study very recently. So I believe that more attention must be paid by the Congress to the programs that we are funding. I also believe that we must require any group that receives juvenile crime prevention grants to work in coordination with the juvenile justice system and each other to make sure that the monies are spent effectively and according to an overall plan to deal with delinquency. I think there is a false myth about the juvenile court system, and you will hear from some people today who have been involved in it for a long time and I think will make that clear. The idea is that they are only for punishment, that the juvenile court systems are a punishment system. That was never their design. In fact, it was always designed to intervene to reduce delinquency and try to turn the lives of young people around. So I would like to highlight today a prevention/ intervention program that is working. The Boys and Girls Clubs of America received $43 million last year from the Federal Government, and this committee and Senator Hatch and our subcommittee were very supportive of that. One of the features of these Boys and Girls Clubs is that they are actively involved with local law enforcement and prevention through the juvenile court system. So I believe that an examination of those programs prove that the best prevention programs are those that work with juvenile justice, certainly the ones that are most effectively identifying the kids most at risk. As an example of this coordination, I am proud to highlight a partnership between the Boys and Girls Clubs and the juvenile court system in Mobile, AL, my hometown. Through the resources and efforts of the Boys and Girls Clubs, several very effective programs have been implemented to prevent juvenile crime. Two detention programs, one for boys and one for girls, and an alternative school are now operating. These programs, which have enjoyed great success, are a crucial part of this juvenile system. So I would like to thank Mr. Clyde Martin, the Executive Director of the Mobile Boys and Girls Club, and Bob Martin, the Chief Juvenile Probation Officer and a friend for many, many years, for coming here today to testify about their successful partnership. Also joining us today is Police Chief Richard Pounsberry, from Seaford, DE. Chief Pounsberry has been actively involved in another partnership between Boys and Girls Clubs and local law enforcement, and we look forward to hearing about the successes they have enjoyed. We also very much appreciate Robbie Callaway, Vice President of the Boys and Girls Clubs of America, for being here today. We look forward to hearing from him about the national effort of the Boys and Girls Clubs to affect the lives of at-risk and troubled youth. Indeed, we can do a better job than we are doing. We need to, just like a private business does everyday, look at what we are doing and see if we can do better with the resources we have. And when we have to have it, we need to find additional resources. Before we get started, I would like to show a video. It will take about 10 minutes. I think it will be enlightening to us as we examine some of the ways in which we can have partnerships between the juvenile court systems and other agencies. [Videotape shown.] Senator Sessions. Well, that was an excellent film. Camp Martin, your namesake, Bob Martin; it is good to have you here, and I think that does indicate some of the advantages that come from creativity, the commitment to improvement and partnership between public and private agencies. We are glad to have our ranking member, Senator Biden, here, and maybe you would like to make some comments, Joe, before we get started. STATEMENT OF HON. JOSEPH R. BIDEN, JR., A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE Senator Biden. Just very briefly, I wish everyone in the country, and even more importantly I wish everyone in the Congress from both parties, House and Senate, could take the time to understand the positive impact of these programs. The Boys and Girls Clubs is the most significant. I have worked with the Boys and Girls Clubs, as you have, for a long time now. I am a big fan. I know what they have done in my State. I often have told the story, there was the chief of police in Dover, DE, and back when I was writing the first crime bill, the so-called Crime Prevention Act, the Clinton bill, whatever you want to call it, the bill with 100,000 cops in it, it passed and I was really full of myself, happy I got it done. I went around the State and talked to all the police agencies and all the folks in the State, and everybody was real happy about the prospect. And I turned to this chief, who, it might please you to know, is a very conservative Republican, and I said, Chief Smith, what can I do for you, what do you need? And I expected him to look at me and say, well, what I need is, you know, 20 more cops or more equipment, or whatever. He said you can build me another Boys and Girls Club in West Dover. I said, I beg your pardon? And he took out three-by-five cards; he wasn't known any more than I am for his computer wizardry. He took out three-by-five cards that he had put together in his file in the Dover Police Department, and the chief knows this guy. And he pointed out to me that since the Boys and Girls Club had been built in East Dover, crime had been down 30 percent, arrests down 30 percent in that neighborhood, that area, and truancy was down 28 percent. So he said, you can build me another Boys and Girls Club. That was when I started working with Robbie and when a lot of our colleagues wouldn't work on whether or not we would spend that prevention money the way I thought we should the prevention money in that bill. We figured if we make Boys and Girls Clubs, because they have wide, wide constituencies--I will conclude on this point. One of the good things about the Boys and Girls Clubs and the reason why they are the first that I am aware of since I have been a Senator--I have been a Senator 27 years. I literally wrote into the bill, with the help of my colleagues, a provision that Boys and Girls Clubs explicitly would get some funding, and there was a method in my madness in doing that. There are more Republicans, there are more Democrats, there are more CEO's, there are more big-shots in each of our towns and cities who are on the boards of Boys and Girls Clubs. And I knew when they picked up the phone and called conservative Senators like you and others and they said maybe we should invest in prevention, you all would say, well, that is not a bad idea. The chairman of the board of Pepsi-Cola is calling me, or the bishop of the Episcopal Church, or the Baptist whatever was calling. And it has worked, it has worked. This is working. The mother says this is not rocket science. She always talks about, you know, the things that are obvious. And Robbie is tired of hearing me say this. She says from the time I am a kid, an idle mind is the devil's workshop, idle mind is the devil's workshop. You give kids nothing to do between 2:30 p.m. and dark and I guarantee you they are going to find something to do, and a 75-percent shot is going to be something you don't like them doing. That is the big thing. This is a heck of a program you all have down in your State, first-rate, and much, much more extensive than what exists in many other parts of the country in dealing with an identified clientele that is already in serious trouble, or is likely to be. I will conclude by saying I think the overwhelming positive impact of Boys and Girls Clubs beyond all the statistics is simply it gives kids a structured place to be. It is an outfit that has serious, serious people in the community invested in it. It has private and public sector money now, mostly private money. And, lastly, it literally gives kids a place to go. I am really pleased, Mr. Chairman, you are holding this hearing. I am really pleased we have finally reached a point in the Congress where I think we have a consensus on Boys and Girls Clubs. And I think if you asked the witnesses today, are there other outfits that could do good things, too, I doubt whether they will tell you the only prevention facility in all of America is Boys and Girls Clubs. I think they might tell you there are other avenues, too, and I hope we can get focused on it. I appreciate your doing this, and I, in a very parochial way, welcome my chief here. He and the town got themselves a new Boys and Girls Club and I am anxious to hear what he says about the impact of that. So thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Senator Sessions. Thank you, Senator Biden, and I appreciate your consistent leadership on these issues, and crime particularly, for many years. A lot of the good laws, when I was a Federal prosecutor, you helped pass and they really made a difference. I hope today we will begin to think through how to best do prevention, how we can best affect positively the lives of kids who are at risk. So let me ask our group to step forward, if you would, at this time. I think we have you on a clock, but if you finish early and want to submit your written statements, that would be fine, too. I think the panel has been introduced. I think a vote has just started. Senator Biden. Do you want me to go and vote and come back or do you want us to go together, or how do you want to do it? It doesn't matter. Senator Sessions. We do have a vote on now and Senator Biden is going to go and cast his vote and then he can come back and maybe we won't be interrupted. Mr. Callaway, it is a delight to have you with us. We are indeed impressed with Boys and Girls Clubs nationally, and I know you know on a per capita and size, Clyde McGuire's is one of the biggest in the country and one of the most successful. We would love to hear your remarks at this time. PANEL CONSISTING OF ROBBIE CALLAWAY, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, BOYS AND GIRLS CLUBS OF AMERICA, ROCKVILLE, MD; ROBERT J. MARTIN, CHIEF PROBATION OFFICER/COORDINATOR, MOBILE COUNTY JUVENILE COURT, MOBILE, AL; CLYDE McGUIRE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, BOYS AND GIRLS CLUBS OF SOUTH ALABAMA, INC., MOBILE, AL; AND RICHARD POUNSBERRY, CHIEF OF POLICE, SEAFORD, DE STATEMENT OF ROBBIE CALLAWAY Mr. Callaway. Mr. Chairman, it is good to be here with you. I am not going to read my statement. I heard the statement about the time. I am going to be quick. We have over 2,300 Boys and Girls Clubs now in the country, serving over three million kids. You know, it is great to have Senator Biden here, and Senator Biden has been a longtime supporter. We were at about 1,200,000 kids when I met Senator Biden; we are now at three million. You came in and took over this subcommittee, and I remember one of the first meetings I had with you when you were here and you talked about Boys and Girls Clubs working. And we talked about prevention that works and that is what we have. I am glad you brought these gentlemen because these are some of the best people we have in the country. For the record, we are serving some of the toughest kids in the Nation. We have 359 of our clubs that are in public housing. We actually now have three clubs in detention centers, working with the courts, getting those kids that are in detention--instead of putting them further into the system, we are bringing them back and putting them into the Boys and Girls Clubs. Does it work? On September 15, we had a Louis Harris survey that was released at our congressional breakfast here on the Hill. Some of you were here. And the results of that Lou Harris independent survey that they did was 80 percent of the alumni that they surveyed said that the club staff helped them to understand right from wrong. Sixty-five percent said the club was the only place to go after school in their neighborhood, and over 50 percent of those surveyed stated that the club really saved my life. These are kids that would have gone further into the system. They said the Boys and Girls Clubs saved their life. We have, in Boys and Girls Clubs, a Gang Prevention Through Targeted Outreach Program that has been funded by the Office of Juvenile Justice, and it has gotten great support from Shea Bilchik and the Office of Juvenile Justice. In 1983, we began that program. Now, we have expanded that to serve kids from gangs. The results of that program so far within the Boys and Girls Clubs--this is a follow-up study--93 percent of the youth participating in that program were not re-involved in the juvenile justice system. This is an intervention program that you are talking about. Ninety-three percent did not go back into the juvenile justice system. Senator Sessions. And what kind of program was that? Would you repeat that? Mr. Callaway. That was an intervention program operated in Boys and Girls Clubs. Senator Sessions. For kids who had been in trouble? Mr. Callaway. Kids who had been involved with either the police or the courts, and had been sent to the Boys and Girls Clubs as part of either that--not technically sentenced, but they basically had been sent to the Boys and Girls Clubs. Ninety-three percent were not further involved. Thirty-nine percent did better in school after going back, after the courts sent them to the Boys and Girls Clubs. You have today Clyde McGuire, who has been a leader, and we are looking to expand what he does into other Boys and Girls Clubs around the country. And we have Bob Martin. Let me get through this even a little faster here and talk just about a couple kids, read quotes from a couple kids. Our Youth of the Year from New Hampshire: ``I didn't have anywhere to go or anything to do. I would get into a lot of trouble stealing and fighting. I even got arrested. I was then introduced to the Boys and Girls Clubs after being arrested. Until that moment, I was lost.'' Let's look at a girl, Liberty Franklin, who was our national Youth of the Year, and many of you met her. Counseling and safe haven was what drew Franklin to the Holmes County Boys and Girls Club. Raised by a single parent, living in a public housing community riddled by crime and violence, Franklin found little support at home from her two older sisters who had been in and out jail for drug abuse. In addition, it is only with Franklin's intervention that her mother has been able to stay sober for the last 2 years. This girl became our national Youth of the Year and is now in college studying to be an orthodontist. Our Youth of the Year this year is a kid named Martin Banda. ``At the time, I had two choices, either become a member of the Boys and Girls Club or''--this is in his words--``or hang out on the streets of Lemoyne, in public housing. When the Boys and Girls Club opened, Lemoyne was at the peak of gangs and drugs. It had an extremely bad reputation which had to be overcome. I thank the Boys and Girls Club for saving me.'' One last one and I am going to stop and come back for questions. This one is very special, and when you talk to some of your colleagues, you talk about a kid in Massachusetts. This is from the newspaper. This is not what the Boys and Girls Clubs wrote; it is from the local newspaper. ``Ex-Gang Punk Is a Teen Role Model. Back in 1995, one of his closest gang pals was killed in a shoot-out and Hector's life seemed headed down the same dangerous road. Even the Dominican native admits he hung around guns, sold marijuana to get money, and was considered a hopeless street punk. When he was in the seventh grade, he received straight F's. He repeated the eighth grade, after missing more than 90 days of school.'' And Hector was about to be turned over to the State Department--you are talking about intervention. He was about to be turned over to the State Department of Youth Services after being caught shoplifting. But the Lawrence Boys and Girls Club turned his life around. A juvenile court judge, a former Boys Club member himself, just as some police chiefs are former Boys and Girls Club members, gave Hector a huge break, releasing him to one of the club's voluntary members. Steve Kelly, of the Boys Club, took Hector under his wing, encouraging him to pursue his studies as well as basketball. Hector repeated the eighth grade, making the honor roll this time. He dropped out of school in eighth grade and made the honor roll. When they talked about Hector, ``He was big in the gangs, to the point where we thought we were going to lose him.'' They were vying for him; they were vying with the Boys and Girls Club for Hector. Our good Boys and Girls Clubs, like the one Clyde runs, like the one in Seaford, DE, we will vie with the gang members; we will go for those kids, we will intervene. Listen to this. ``But now schools like Harvard, Dartmouth and Duke are after Hector, and Hector credits the Boys and Girls Club for saving his life.'' In Hector's own words, ``If it wasn't for them, I could have ended up one of two ways, dead or in jail.'' Hector is going to Dartmouth this year. Did I make my time? We can go into questions later. Senator Sessions. A very good story, and that 93-percent rate--I won't say that I am confident that would continue, but any time you are approaching anything like that rate, that is extraordinary and it does make a difference. [The prepared statement of Mr. Callaway follows:] Prepared Statement of Mr. Robbie Callaway Mr. Chairman and Members of the committee, my name is Robbie Callaway and I am Senior Vice President of Boys & Girls Clubs of America. I am pleased to be before you today to testify on Boys & Girls Clubs of America's role in reducing juvenile crime throughout America. Before I begin, however, I want to take a moment to thank the United States Senate, and especially the Senate Judiciary Committee for helping Boys & Girls Clubs of America reach an additional 1 million young people over a 5-year period. Last year alone you helped us average 5 new Boys & Girls Clubs a week and over 200,000 new boys and girls. The effort has been extraordinarily successful. On behalf of our 3 million kids, I thank you. Boys & Girls Clubs of America Boys & Girls Clubs of America is a national non-profit organization currently comprising 2,340 local Boys & Girls Club facilities throughout all 50 States, serving over 3 million young people. It is the only nationwide, facility-based youth agency with a primary focus on disadvantaged young people. Among those 2,340 Clubs there are:359 Clubs in public housing 47 Clubs on Native American land 339 Clubs in schools and 200 Clubs on military bases worldwide Quite literally we are going anywhere where there are kids who need our services. We surround our kids with caring adults who become positive role models and mentors, and we provide them with a safe positive place to go after school, on the weekends, and during the summer. Boys & Girls Clubs have a profound impact on their communities. We hear this from law enforcement officials at every level, from school teachers, from probation officers, and from shopkeepers. On September 15, 1999, Louis Harris & Associates released the results of their independent survey of Boys & Girls Club alumni. The results were overwhelming. 80 percent said that the Club staff helped them to understand right from wrong. 65 percent said the Club was the only place to go after school in their neighborhood. Over 50 percent of those surveyed stated that ``* * * the Club really saved my life.'' Gang Prevention through Targeted Outreach Program During the 1980's Boys & Girls Clubs of America successfully developed and tested the Delinquency Prevention through Targeted Outreach program in response to the dramatic rise of delinquency in severely distressed neighborhoods across the country. In 1991, due to increased gang related activity, Boys & Girls Clubs of America, building upon this success, developed the Gang Prevention through Targeted Outreach program to address this growing need. Still a successful and important program today, this initiative has continuously been funded by the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, U.S. Department of Justice. The Gang Prevention through Targeted Outreach program uses effective techniques that direct ``at-risk'' young people to positive alternatives. Through a referral network linking local Clubs with courts, police, juvenile justice agencies, schools, social service agencies and community organizations, as well as through direct outreach efforts, young people considered to be ``at-risk'' are recruited and mainstreamed into Club programs as a diversion from gang activity. Young people on the right track do not become involved in costly and destructive behavior. They help others, take responsibility for their own actions and act as role models to younger children. The Gang Prevention through Targeted Outreach program attempts to provide young people with exciting alternatives to the destructiveness of gangs, and an opportunity to be a valuable asset to the community. A. HIGHLIGHTS--YOUTH AT-RISK OF DELINQUENCY From 1984 to 1990, more than 10,000 ``at-risk'' youth were recruited and mainstreamed into programming at more than 200 Clubs. We established more than 1,200 formalized linkages with courts, police, schools and other referring agencies as part of the program. At the end of the program: 93 percent of youth participating were not re-involved with the juvenile justice system; and 39 percent of those youth who returned to the mainstream, demonstrated a positive change in academic performance. B. THE OBJECTIVE OF THE GANG PREVENTION THROUGH TARGETED OUTREACH PROGRAM To mobilize community leaders and Club staff to identify their roles and develop a community strategy and response to juvenile delinquency and gang involvement. To identify and recruit youth at-risk of gang involvement and to provide them with constructive, positive alternatives using staff outreach and a formal referral network. To mainstream participants into engaging and relevant Boys & Girls Club programs. To case manage, individual progress in the following areas: program participation, academic performance, family involvement and contact with the juvenile justice system. Using the Gang Prevention through Targeted Outreach model, each Boys & Girls Club creates its own program designed specifically to meet the needs of their community. The focus of this hearing is on ``intervention programs that work.'' Throughout the nation there are 10 major intervention programs being operated by local Boys & Girls Clubs. These programs are in Lawrence, MA; Ventura, CA, San Francisco, CA; El Monte, CA; Jacksonville, FL; Dallas, TX; St. Paul, MN; North Little Rock, AR; Albany, GA; and Fort Worth, TX. For the purposes of this hearing I will highlight two of these programs. I can provide additional information on the others upon request. Also testifying this afternoon is Mr. Clyde McGuire from the Boys & Girls Clubs of South Alabama who is leading the way in promoting intervention programs through Boys & Girls Clubs. Boys & Girls Clubs of Ventura, CA--Facing the Future Facing the Future mandates that youth on probation spend 10 weeks at the Boys & Girls Club of Ventura, with the express purpose of nurturing and developing social skills in young people that enable them to become productive citizens in the community. Facing the Future Thirty-five gang members were enlisted in individual, small and large group activities in the positive, caring and safe environment of a Boys & Girls Club. Strict rules and expectations are conveyed to the participants at an orientation meeting. A specific contract is drawn up between the advisor and the gang member, laying out the exact activities the youth will be involved in during the program. The contract includes regular Boys & Girls Club programs (including prevention programs, educational programs, and sports programs) and specialty classes involving career exploration, family planning, independent living, AIDS education, and self-esteem building. The probation department does a debriefing with each of the 35 participants to assess the success of the program and the readiness of these gang members for re-entry into mainstream society. Boys & Girls Clubs of St. Paul--Getting Out Program Getting Out is a gang intervention/tattoo removal program designed to help young people, ages 18 and under, escape from gangs and make positive changes in their lives. Establishment of school/career goals and development of social skills are the key areas for action in the program. The staff at the Boys & Girls Clubs of St. Paul helps gang members identify the skills they need to get their life on course and refers them to appropriate programs to meet those needs. Getting Out There are six components of Getting Out, designed to help youth leave their gang. Community agencies, schools, police, juvenile officials, and families are encouraged to make referrals to the program. 1. Referrals--There are four criteria for acceptance: the gang member must be 25 years old or younger, be a documented gang member, be interested in leaving a gang, and have a guardian's consent for those under age 18. 2. Initial Screening/Volunteer Service--The participant most agree to do 20 hours of community service in order to be accepted into the program. 3. Goal Setting--Five core areas are outlined: community service, education, job skills, life skills, and development of peer relationships. 4. Monitoring and Further Goal Setting--The program director constantly monitors the participant, checking on his/her progress and helping them to overcome any obstacles. Police, probation officials, and school teachers are assessed to get their feedback on the participants progress. 5. Tattoo Removal and Monitoring--This is an important incentive in the program and is therefore put off until the end to encourage completion. Those who want to leave gangs know that the removal of their gang tattoo is critical to their safety outside of gangs and their successful reintegration into society. 6. Leaving the Gang--The success of the program is assessed by the future activities of program participants. Graduates are often used as spokespersons for the program and to encourage others to leave gangs. Conclusion Boys & Girls Clubs of America has a 140 year history of preventing and reducing juvenile crime. By giving kids a positive place to go after school, on the weekends, and during the summer, we have helped keep them away from juvenile delinquency and other damaging habits that adversely affect their lives and harm the life of a community. Increasingly, Boys & Girls Clubs are seen as the local experts in intervention, and are being asked to intervene in the lives of ``at- risk'', or already delinquent youth, in an effort to bring them back into the mainstream. As always, our Clubs are responding. With additional resources targeted directly at intervention however, we can, and will, respond whenever this committee, and this country, need us. In closing, I appreciate the opportunity to be here this morning to discuss Boys & Girls Clubs of America and the role our Clubs have played for the last 140 years. Our Clubs will continue to support the work of law enforcement officials across the country, helping to limit juvenile delinquency and to reduce the number of repeat offenders. In the process we are saving kids lives (Louis Harris & Associates Survey). Once again thank you for the opportunity to testify this morning. If you desire further information for the record, it will be provided immediately. Thank you Mr. Chairman. [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9953.001 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T9953.002 Senator Sessions. I think what we will do now is, if you don't mind, we will take a break. When Senator Biden gets back, he can maybe continue the meeting, and I will join you as soon as I can. It should not be more than 10 minutes. So we will recess until we can get this vote over. Thank you so much. [The subcommittee stood in recess from 2:32 p.m. to 2:46 p.m.] Senator Sessions. I am sorry to have interrupted us with that necessary thing we do around here every now and then, vote. Mr. Martin, we are delighted to have you here, and I don't think I have told you but I am very proud and pleased that they named Camp Martin after you and I think that is a very worthy thing. It indicates the respect with which you are held in south Alabama and the skill and leadership you have demonstrated more than a few years on issues that we will be talking about today and have been for some time in this Senate. We will be glad to hear from you at this time. STATEMENT OF ROBERT J. MARTIN Mr. Martin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I would just like to say that you have really put a lot of pressure on me today because following Robbie Callaway is a tough, tough act to have to follow. The film really---- Senator Sessions. Bob, let me interrupt you. Would you share with us the length of your involvement and the nature of your involvement in juvenile justice issues before you get started? Mr. Martin. I have been a probation officer since 1973 and have been chief probation officer since 1976. This is actually the second time I have come before this committee to testify. I was invited by Senator Denton to testify back in 1981. So in terms of length, I have been around for a while. Senator Sessions. And you have visited and studied other centers all over the Nation, I know. Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. I have gotten with my staff and tried to visit as many centers as we can. Basically, I tell people Mr. McGuire and I are thieves. We go in and we look at good programs and beg, borrow and steal them, bring them back to Mobile and try to modify them. Senator Sessions. Very good. I am sorry to interrupt you. Mr. Martin. Well, it is all right. I was just going to say that the film did a much better job of saying what I was going to say, and as a consequence I am going to limit myself to just a few points. One that I think is especially important is to note that the boot camp was started with an OJJDP grant in 1992, and that that grant for $1.9 million spent over a 30-month period has been the seed money and the catalyst for the programs you have seen on the film. Those programs now spend $3.5 million each year, so it has been a real valuable thing to have invested that OJJDP money. Senator Sessions. Both the State funding and the Boys and Girls Clubs? Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. With the Federal money, we started the boot camp. It impressed everyone so much that the State stepped in and went into partnership with the city and county. So it is 75 percent State money, 25 percent local money. The other issue or point I want to make is that the guidelines for the grant call for a public/private partnership. Had it not, this partnership and what you have seen on that film very well may have not come about. The other thing I would like to point is that there is a national connection for the juvenile court as a result of being partners with Boys and Girls Clubs. Boys and Girls Clubs has a national office. Mr. Callaway was very helpful in getting that grant for us. He has provided us with assistance of all kinds, and even today at lunch we were sitting there just casually talking with him and he gave me a perspective that I hadn't had before, and that is out in California they are beginning to locate Boys and Girls Clubs in detention centers. Well, as you know, we have the State's largest detention center, and the idea of having a Boys and Girls Club come in and do the programming for the center really makes a lot of sense. It prepares those kids to go back to their homes and their local Boys and Girls Clubs. So I am going to be going to California and probably doing some more stealing. I will wrap it up by saying this, that back in the 1980's we had four very large caseloads, somewhere in the area of 100 cases per caseload. And the largest and toughest---- Senator Sessions. A hundred cases per probation officer? Mr. Martin. I am sorry, per probation officer, that is correct. And the toughest cases were in four housing board projects. We actually had a probation officer assigned to each project. During the 1980's, Boys and Girls Clubs were located in each of those four housing projects. I, in turn, based a probation officer in each of the four clubs so that there are probation officers working with the Boys and Girls Clubs personnel with the delinquents in that area. In 1994, we completely closed that program down and I reassigned the probation officers to other parts of the county because in all four housing projects there wasn't a single caseload. I couldn't justify having one PO assigned there. So partnering has its advantages, and I am just here to say that I am glad OJJDP required us to go into one. Senator Sessions. Very good. [The prepared statement of Mr. Martin follows:] Prepared Statement of Robert J. Martin Thank you Mr. Chairman. This is the second time I have had the privilege of appearing before a Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on behalf of America's at-risk youth. My first appearance occurred more than 18 years ago. Senator Jeremiah Denton asked me to testify concerning what was then a growing tide of juvenile violence. Little did we imagine then, the terrible extremes this problem would reach in our society. But I come before you today, confident that we have learned from hard and bitter lessons about the kinds of programs and approaches which are successful and beginning to reverse this social plague. In Mobile, in Alabama and through out the nation the rates of crime and juvenile delinquency are receding. It is not one agency or one discipline or one kind or set of programs that have begun to reverse this thirty year or longer trend. Rather it is a combination of successful programs; community policing, alternative schools, welfare reform, mentoring, successful prevention programs like the Boy and Girls Clubs and intervention programs like boot-camps and wilderness experiences. Many of these efforts have only been successful because our communities have learned the value of forming partnerships between key agencies, and between the public and private sectors. These partnerships have multiplied the effectiveness of services and better utilized resources and funding. Last year I saw an excellent example of how community partnerships can lead to very successful outcomes during a tour of the Boston project. There a community came together and drastically reduced its murder rate. Police social workers, juvenile court officers, Boys and Girls Clubs, city recreation and even city maintenance staff all worked together and redefined themselves and their city. This afternoon, Mr. McGuire and I want to briefly tell you about our experience with successful partnerships and about a few of the programs that have proven beneficial in remediating juvenile delinquency in our part of America. In 1990 we put together a proposal for a juvenile boot camp project which was submitted to the Office of Juvenile Justice & Delinquency Prevention. This proposal received 1.9 million dollars in O.J.J.D.P. funding over a period of 30 months. It proved so successful that it lead to city, county, and state funding for a comprehensive array of programs which today annually spend more than 3.5 million dollars for community based treatment for juvenile delinquents. This comprehensive system includes family based treatment, parent education, family counseling, alternative education, restitution, job readiness training and graduated sanctions. All of these treatment programs are a direct result of the O.J.J.D.P. seed money for a juvenile boot camp and the benefits derived from a public/ private partnership formed by the Boys & Girls Clubs of South Alabama, the Mobile County Strickland Juvenile Justice Center, the University of South Alabama, and a wide array of social service agencies both public and private. To name only a few these include the public school system, the mental health center, the Boy Scouts, local churches, and several private businesses. This partnership, founded in response to the guidelines issued in the O.J.J.D.P. announcement of the prototype juvenile boot camp initiative in 1990, has lead to a comprehensive community based juvenile justice system in Mobile, Alabama, which I believe offers a model for our nation. The Strickland Juvenile Justice Center and the Boys & Girls Clubs of South Alabama have formed a partnership. These public and private entities use the advantages and skills each possess. The private sector, the Boys & Girls Clubs of South Alabama, brings flexibility of hiring, spending and opens the arena of private sector funding for programs which traditionally have been publicly funded. At the same time the partnership allows public dollars to flow to a private non-profit agency, which allows the private non-profit agency to participate in the intervention of juvenile delinquency while continuing its vital role in prevention. There was a time in this country when the juvenile courts and private agencies like the Boys & Girls Clubs viewed themselves as separate agencies with very different missions. One was strictly prevention while the other's mission was purely intervention. Today in Mobile County, Alabama, the Strickland Juvenile Justice Center and the Boys & Girls Clubs of South Alabama recognize our common mission which is to assist children who are most at-risk to becoming a burden on their community to grow into productive and self-sufficient members of a law- abiding society. Senator Sessions. Clyde McGuire, it is good to see you, and I know your club is extraordinary there, on a per-capita basis one of the most successful in the country in size of membership and size of the town. I know Bernie Malcove is one of those citizen leaders that Joe talks about that gives heart and soul to this effort, and together you have done a great job. So we would be glad to hear from you at this time. STATEMENT OF CLYDE McGUIRE Mr. McGuire. Thank you, Senator, and good afternoon. The film picked up many of the things that I was going to talk about, but if I can touch upon some key points, in the past 7 years since we began implementation of this program, we have learned the following. Number one, it is cost-effective, and it is cost-effective primarily because of the partnership. Senator Sessions. Now, when you say this program, is that the Environmental Youth Corps and the GROWTH program? Mr. McGuire. Yes, sir, that is correct. When I say program, I am speaking about our Camp Martin program for adjudicated boys; our GROWTH program for adjudicated girls; our wilderness program, which is a specialty program for boys; and, of course, our alternative school. Senator Sessions. When you say adjudicated, that means that the young person has been found guilty or delinquent in the juvenile court, is that correct, and there has been a final adjudication that they are responsible for an improper activity? Mr. McGuire. Yes, sir, that is correct. In those 7 years, we have learned the following. Our program is cost-effective because of the partnership. Second, recidivism has been reduced among our young men that participate in the program. And, third, these young people that have gone out and committed a crime after they are released from our program typically commit a less serious crime. So it is going in the right direction. I think why we are successful is because of several key points. Number one, we do offer a comprehensive program, as depicted in the video--the education program, the assessment, the goal-setting, the conflict resolution. According to the latest FBI crime report, 51 percent of all young people across America that commit homicide, it is a result of argument. As a result of that, we implemented a strong anger management program. We mix kids up with good role models. There is a strong mentoring program built into what we do. The second key point, relationship-building. Senator, we spend a great deal of time hiring people that genuinely care about young people. That is important to us. We are also big on taking a holistic approach in working with the family. When we speak of relationships, from the time a young person enters into our program, their entire family is involved in a parenting program that not only takes place during the residential phase that follows them into aftercare. The third point of why I think our programs are successful is because of an individualized treatment plan. We assess a young person when they first come into a program. We identify those needs and we try to develop a tailor-made program to follow them throughout the duration of the program. And, number four, and to me the most important, is aftercare. I firmly believe that a lot of agencies can run a strong residential program. I am convinced, though, that not every agency puts as much emphasis into aftercare as they should. In our program, we typically see a young--by the way, when I say aftercare, I am speaking about once a young man or woman has graduated from our program and have been placed back into their community to live. In our program, we will see a young man or young lady on a Monday through organized athletic programs and mentoring and education in our Boys and Girls Clubs. On Tuesday, we are seeing them after school. Thursday, we are meeting with the entire family through a parenting program, and on Saturday they are involved in a community service project. Senator Sessions. Do you have people that follow up with them individually or just people at the schools who are working with them? Mr. McGuire. No, sir. We do case management, so every staff person in our organization has so many young people to follow up throughout. Senator Sessions. By name? Mr. McGuire. Yes, sir, and know them by their first name and their dog by its first name. It is that important to us. So the key word in aftercare is intensity. I think there are two other reasons why our programs work. We believe that no one agency or individual can solve all the problems facing young people and their families. I guess, realistically, no one can. But, collectively, we pooled our resources, our talents, and we are doing more together than if we were doing it separately. So we remove turf issues. And in that same vein, it doesn't matter who gets the credit for doing something good in a person's life. I think what matters is meeting the needs of those young people, and we stay focused on that goal 24/7. As far as needs, I compliment you for your good work. I strongly believe that all roads eventually lead back to prevention, and historically by and large that is the area that we typically have put the fewest resources but certainly have the greatest of needs. I strongly support the idea of agencies whose thrust is prevention being involved with a justice program. We are living proof that it works; it speaks to continuity, it speaks to synergy. Just in closing, I want you to know that you guys can take great comfort in knowing that what you are doing is not only changing lives; you are saving lives, and for that I thank you for all your support. Senator Sessions. Thank you very much. [The prepared statement of Mr. McGuire follows:] Prepared Statement of Clyde McGuire Thank you Mr. Chairman and good afternoon. Its truly an honor to be standing before you today to speak about ``intervention programs that work''. Bob shared with you some of the history of the partnership between the court system and our organization, the Boys & Girls Clubs of South Alabama. As a result of this partnership hundreds of young men and women have been afforded the opportunity to participate in our program, and as a result of this opportunity, have been able to turn their lives around. In the past seven years we have learned this about our program: (a) it's cost effective because of the partnership; (b) recidivism is reduced; (c) those young people that do commit a crime after leaving our program, usually commit a less serious crime in comparison to adjudicated youth at interstate schools. Why are we successful, I firmly believe because of some of the following points: A comprehensive program We offer education, life skills, mentoring, health and physical education. We teach young people choices and consequences, goal setting and that it is truly a privilege and honor to be afforded an opportunity to turn one's life around and to give back to one's community through public service. Relationship 1. We spend a great deal of time hiring individuals that genuinely care about young people. 2. We teach relationship building. We offer parenting classes not only during the residential phase, but also during the aftercare phase. Individualized treatment plan Every young person that participates in our program is assessed and, based upon one's assessment, a program is developed for that individual. This plan follows them from the residential phase through aftercare. Aftercare I am convinced that many agencies can run good residential programs; however, I'm not sure how many agencies place enough emphasis in aftercare program. Aftercare is what takes place when young people graduate from residential programs and go back home to live. In our aftercare program, we offer education, life skills, athletics. counseling, community service and much more. The keyword in aftercare is intensity! I might add, every program we offer affords a young person; (a) a sense of confidence; (b) a sense of ownership; (c) a sense of belonging, and, (d) a sense of empowerment. These youth development strategies are critical and essential in youth development programming. Two other reasons why our programs work: We realize that no one person or one agency can solve all of the problems facing our young people and their families. However, by coming together and forming a partnership we can meet more needs collectively, rather than standing alone. The moral of the story * * * remove turf issues. Secondly, we don't worry about what agency or which individual gets the credit in creating life-change for young people. What matters are those young people. Their needs must always come first. NEEDS We need more funding, especially in the area of aftercare. When everything is said and done, all roads lead back to prevention. Historically this is the area of greatest need and where there are fewer resources. CLOSING In closing, I want to express my appreciation to each of you for all that you have done and will continue to do for the children and their families across America. Senator Sessions. Chief Pounsberry. STATEMENT OF RICHARD POUNSBERRY Mr. Pounsberry. Yes, sir. It is certainly my pleasure to be here today, Senator, Senator Biden. I would like to have my testimony, if you would, just put into the record, and I would just like to make a few points to reiterate what is in that testimony. First of all, unlike what is portrayed on television or in the cinema, where most law enforcement is concerned with strictly writing tickets or locking people up, most police agencies in the United States today try to achieve a balance of crime prevention and law enforcement. The majority of the police departments that I have had the pleasure of working with over the past 25 years in law enforcement are dedicated to the concept of community-oriented policing. They were dedicated to community-oriented policing before there was even a term ``community-oriented policing.'' Most police agencies--and I base this on the fact that I have had the opportunity to work for three; I started with Annapolis City, I worked for Prince George's County, and I am now the Chief of Police of Seaford, DE--also look at not just traditional policing, but they look at social and environmental issues as well, and the social issues are very important. As has just been pointed out by Mr. McGuire, you have to create that partnership. It doesn't matter who gets the credit as long as you are achieving the results. We try to use within law enforcement a proactive approach to interacting in a positive manner with young adults. How do we do that? In the city of Seaford--and I am fortunate to have the director of our Boys and Girls Club, John Hollis, with us today--we have 2,400 children in our Boys and Girls Club. My question to you, sir, is if we didn't have that Boys and Girls Club, what would those 2,400 people be doing? What would those young people be doing? What alternatives would they have? Also, within that Boys and Girls Club, within the city of Seaford, we have an Explorers group. The Explorers is a part of the Boy Scouts of America. The Explorers is based on the concept of a law enforcement theme that allows young people between the ages of 14 and 18 years of age to interact with the police officers twice a month. In some cases, we satisfy the curiosity of the young people with their interest in a law enforcement career. But at the same time, what we are doing is we are allowing a positive role model to come into the lives of these young people. I think you will agree that not only has law enforcement changed over the last 25 years, but so has society. Twenty-five years ago, the family structure was a lot better. I would say that today the young people are looking for alternatives. They are looking for alternatives in a number of areas. Maybe it is Boys and Girls Clubs or Big Brothers, but I think they are looking for that positive role model in their lives. I am happy to say that my police department does have a good partnership with the Western Sussex Boys and Girls Club, and that we do work well together to try to meet the needs of the young people within that community. And based on that, we have seen a dramatic decrease and calls for service for juvenile crime, as well as juvenile crime statistics, and I would like to see it continue. Thank you, sir. [The prepared statement of Mr. Pounsberry follows:] Prepared Statement of Richard Pounsberry Thank you Chairman Sessions, Senator Biden, and members of the Senate Judiciary Committee for allowing me the opportunity to testify today. My name is Richard Pounsberry. I am the Chief of Police for Seaford, Delaware, a town of about 6,000 but one that is growing rapidly. I have 25 years of law enforcement experience, and over the years I have seen first hand how a balanced approach to fighting crime that includes prevention as well enforcing our laws is the best way to keep our streets safe. I bring you greetings as well from Mayor Daniel Short of Seaford, who had planned to be here as well but was detained by town business. I am very pleased to be here on behalf of Seaford, however, and express our appreciation for the opportunity to tell you our story about juvenile intervention programs that really work, and the role of Boys and Girls Clubs in particular in making that happen. While it is always an honor and a pleasure to testify before Congress, today is especially rewarding for me for two reasons. The first is, of course, that Senator Biden has been a long-time friend of law enforcement as well as my home state's Senator. I am especially proud to be here with him. The most important reason, though, is the same reason that we are all here--Boys and Girls clubs. As a police officer for 25 years, I have been asked repeatedly about what resources are needed to improve law enforcement. For a long time, we said that we needed more police officers on the streets, more patrol cars, more effective guns, bullet proof vests and more advanced technology. While these things are important, we have recognized in recent years that there is another key factor in our crime fighting efforts--stopping crime by getting at the root of the problem. Police officers today have embraced community policing and a pro- active style that doesn't just consider the traditional police responses, but also deals with social and educational issues as well, and in providing an alternative to the environment of the streets which is where most kids get in trouble. It may seem like a cliche, but the maxim that ``an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure'' becomes a reality when you realize that it costs the taxpayers at least $35,000 per year in the state of Delaware to incarcerate just one prisoner. In comparison, it costs a fraction of that amount to keep the doors of a Boys and Girls club open. In terms of where we get the most bang for the buck, there is no comparison. Boys and Girls clubs have always provided a safe haven for children after school, in the evenings, and on weekends. And they are making a difference. We are in a time when many parents are divorced or otherwise absent. We are in a place where kids--boys and girls alike-- are pressured to use drugs instead of learning how to use a computer or play sports. We need look no further than the Boys and Girls Club in our town of Seaford, Delaware to demonstrate that safe havens for kids really work in preventing crime. A three-year study done by the Seaford Police Department showed a dramatic drop in juvenile crime since the opening of the Western Sussex County Boys and Girls Club just two years ago in 1997. Here's what we found out: In 1995, we at the police department had 78 complaints about juvenile crime. In 1996, that number went up to 88 complaints. BUT, after the opening of the Boys and Girls Club, we had only 35 juvenile complaints in 1997. That's a 150 percent decrease! We have seen a pattern of declines in arrest numbers and declines in police calls for service since our Boys, and Girls club opened its doors. As some would say, the numbers tell the tale. And now, over the last year, crimes committed by juveniles have leveled off. The Seaford police department, working with the Delaware State Police, have made a concerted effort to crack down on crimes in our community as part of our ``Safe Streets'' initiative. Law enforcement does a great deal to combat juvenile crime, but we cannot do it alone--we need help on the prevention end. I realize this may sound strange coming from a police chief--but believe me, it is the officers on the street who are telling me we need more programs like those offered at the Western Sussex club. We need programs such as basketball, volleyball, computers and tutoring. Police officers are in those clubs as coaches and volunteers. And there are programs like TRIAD--where senior citizens partner with police and the community using the Boys and Girls club facilities, and interact with the young people in the club as well. We have a brand new Explorers group, with a group of 14 to 18 year old teenagers who have an interest in scouting and law enforcement. Kids are not just at our Boys and Girls club right after school--sometimes they are there till nine o'clock at night. In short, by using the services of the Boys and Girls club, a more preventive approach can be used to effectively interact with young adults before they become a part of the criminal justice system. I see Boys and Girls clubs as offering our town a place to build a real sense of community--similar to the old meeting houses that you could find in towns across our country many years ago. Boys and Girls clubs afford opportunities to provide more positive role models and other options are made available that otherwise would not be present-- such as learning computer skills instead of hanging out on the corner. I would encourage this committee, this Congress to stand up and show your support. Ask the Boys and Girls clubs what they need and give it to them. You've done that in the past, and I hope that will continue in the future. If you want to stop crime--stop it before it starts. And the best way I know to stop it is to use an organization--the Boys and Girls Clubs--that has the proven track record to do it. Thank you. I would be happy to take any questions you have. Senator Sessions. Chief, I will just ask you while you are mentioning that, is there any doubt in your mind that a young person who is actively involved in a Boys and Girls Club will be less likely to be involved in criminal activity? Mr. Pounsberry. Well, sir, I am glad you asked that question because I haven't seen Robbie Callaway, I guess, in about 28 years, and Robbie and I grew up in the same area and we were both members of the Boys and Girls Club. So I guess we are living testimony of what Boys and Girls Clubs can do for you. Senator Sessions. Pretty good. Senator Biden. I don't know about Robbie. I think you are OK, Chief, but I don't know. [Laughter.] Senator Sessions. Robbie, what you are doing in Mobile with the GROWTH program, the Youth Corps, and so forth, that is unusual, I guess somewhat different. I am impressed that you are allowing that kind of freedom and innovation. Is that one of your policies, to encourage these kinds of things? Mr. Callaway. Very much so, Senator. As you know, we are serving over 3 million kids and our primary role is prevention, but we have found is that our people are so good at it that there are other kids that we can bring back. Every kid we can bring back out of the system, every kid we can keep from taking another step into the system is a kid that is not going to go to prison. He may be Chief Pounsberry to you, Senator Biden, but he is Ricky Pounsberry to me. As Ricky can tell you, some of the kids that grew up in our neighborhood didn't have a Boys and Girls Club. Some of them went into detention, some of them went into prison, some of them died. The Boys and Girls Clubs can reach some of the kids that went into those detention centers. If even our club back then could have reached out and brought them back into the community, they wouldn't have gone into prison and they wouldn't have died. Yes, we encourage it. As a matter of fact, Clyde is on my government relations advisory committee and he is helping encourage that with other clubs. Every club in the country can't do it; they can't do what Clyde has done. But 10 percent of the clubs could do what Clyde is doing if we had the right support. Senator Sessions. Well, I think that is right and I don't think there is any bright line between pure prevention and pure intervention and that sort of thing. When you get 93 percent of young people that have already been in trouble with the law not getting in trouble again because they are involved in your program, then that is prevention and intervention. That is good all around. Bob, you mentioned the benefits of a public/private partnership. What are the benefits precisely that you would name there? I guess you have got use of resources, efficiency, staffing benefits, administrative benefits, cost economies. Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. Senator Sessions. What are some of the things in your experience you obtain from public-private partnerships? Mr. Martin. You start off, I think, with flexibility in hiring. You have some flexibility in spending. The private partner is able to access some private funds that traditionally would not have been used in a function like this. Senator Sessions. If a State probation officer asked for the money, they wouldn't get it as much as Clyde McGuire's contribution. Mr. Martin. That is absolutely correct. There are funds that the public entity can access. We do that, and then there are funds that only the private sector can access. And as I mentioned earlier, being associated with an organization that is a national organization, it helps to give a wider perspective for us. The other thing, I think, is from a public relations standpoint it is excellent. I think everybody understands that if you are utilizing for your aftercare program existing Boys and Girls Clubs rather than trying to go out and rent a facility or buy a facility, that is an efficient use of funds. There are many resources that Boys and Girls Clubs have. One of the chief ones, I think, is in Mobile we have an outstanding board of directors. We pick people from all professions and all walks of life, so that whatever need we have there will be somebody with that knowledge or that set of skills. Simply put, if we had tried to run a county boot camp years ago, we would not have had access to all those people. Senator Sessions. Bob, one matter that I have discussed here a good bit--and I have not asked you about it, I don't think, per se, but do you find that drug use is an accelerator to criminal behavior by young people, and do you believe that drug testing of young offenders is worthwhile to determine whether or not they are using drugs or have a drug problem? Mr. Martin. Yes to those questions. First of all, I would estimate that probably 80 percent of the kids we are working with have been involved with drugs. Maybe it is higher than that. Senator Sessions. Clyde, you are nodding. Do you agree with those numbers? Mr. McGuire. Yes, sir, I concur. Senator Sessions. That is higher than I thought, actually, and I knew it was high. Mr. Martin. Well, I am not talking about somebody who is addicted and needs to go into some sort of treatment program, but I am talking about kids who get out and use cigarettes; they consume alcohol, they smoke marijuana, and some of them start to use cocaine products. There is a smaller number--I am not sure what it would be, but a smaller number that are addicted and we have to send into treatment. One of the things that we are particularly concerned about are those kids who are coming out of these expensive residential programs, into an aftercare program. Yes, we have to---- Senator Sessions. Expensive residential treatment programs? Mr. Martin. That is correct. Senator Sessions. Paid for by their families or the government? Mr. Martin. It is paid for by the government. State, county and city funds go into our boot camp, our girls treatment program. But the point I was going to make is that one of the greatest dangers to a failure in aftercare is the involvement of drugs and alcohol. An awful lot of kids will be doing fine, but if they get back around their old buddies and start using drugs, we very often lose them. Senator Sessions. Well, shouldn't regular drug testing of those in the aftercare program be made a part of---- Mr. Martin. Yes, sir, and we do that. Regular drug testing is what we try to do to discourage the youngster from getting back. Senator Sessions. And it is not so much to see if you can put them in jail. It is determine what they are doing in those free hours. Mr. Martin. That is exactly it, Senator. Aftercare is not a movement to try to get you back into the boot camp. It is an effort to try to make you successful. And if we can take your temperature and see you have got an illness and give you some medicine for it, we will do that. And if we can drug-screen you and see you have been messing around with some drugs and you need some counseling or better supervision, then we will do that. Senator Sessions. Clyde, on the aftercare, you mentioned, I think, the intensity of aftercare. What is your number one philosophy, I guess, on aftercare? How do you maintain that intensity level and what are you trying to achieve when you are trying to take a young person who has been in trouble with the law and you want to make sure they don't get back into trouble? Mr. McGuire. Senator, I think our number one objective is to keep the young person on the right road. And we have learned this: when a young man or young lady graduates from a residential program, the first 60 days are critical. We need to create a safety net to ensure that they are making the right decisions and being involved in the right things in their life. And one way that we do it is keeping them involved in something positive and a sense of intensity through Boys and Girls Clubs, in their school, setting them up for success. Many kids who are under-achievers in the juvenile penal system have been told that they don't have a lot of value. In our program, we tell them that they have tremendous value, and we also work from the philosophy that every child counts. So to answer your question, we like intensity because we want to have the pulse beat of what is going on in those young people's lives. Senator Sessions. Thank you. Senator Biden. Senator Biden. Thank you very much. Gentlemen, I think it has been said before, and we should say it again, programs are important, money to fund them are important, partnerships are important. But when it gets right down to it, what you said, Mr. McGuire, about the quality of the people you have performing the functions is a gigantic piece of this. And I wasn't being solicitous earlier when I talked about the engagement of the community and getting people of all political stripes and people of standing in the community involved, getting them invested. My experience from watching in Delaware is when Mr. Allen comes up with the money to match the Federal Government's piece to build a Boys and Girls Club in western Sussex County, the Seaford area, he brings with him an awful lot of other people who care and want to make sure it succeeds. He is a man who is not used to failing. He did it out of the goodness of his heart, but he wants to see it work. And so I want to pursue two lines with all of you, and I know, as the old joke goes, Robbie has forgotten more about this than most of us are going to learn. One of the things that I am a little concerned about is that I am so convinced that prevention and intensive aftercare is a formula that could dramatically reduce crime in America, beyond what we have already done. And keep in mind, I am the guy who put the bill in for 100,000 cops. I am the guy who keeps coming for more money for cops, you know, so I am not suggesting we don't need cops. But what I am suggesting is that it seems to me the results are so patently obvious as to what can happen that I would like to figure out a way--and I don't want to get Robbie into this, but a way we can expand this beyond Boys and Girls Clubs. I mean, there are 3 million boys and girls. Well, we are talking about 19 million latchkey kids out there, by the way, 19 million of them. So as good as Boys and Girls Clubs are doing, we have got 15 million kids with keys around their necks leaving school at 2:30 p.m., or whatever time school gets out, and essentially no supervision until mom or dad, or both, come home because they both have to work or they are a single-parent family. So I want to ask you a few things about the ingredients, what is the recipe that makes this work so well, and to see whether or not there are other opportunities. For example, I suspect the Chief may be aware, but the New Castle County Police Department, our largest county, went out with their own money, no Federal money, and they raised money and they built, in the middle of the toughest neighborhood in the county, a beautiful facility that is a Police Athletic League facility. They have duplicated or replicated or imitated a number of the formulas you use, Robbie. They have got real serious people in there; they are really involved. They have got after-school programs, they have got tutoring programs, and one of the advantages they have is they have got an awful lot of cops who volunteer. I might note parenthetically, Mr. Chairman, if you look at police forces across this Nation today, if you took all the men and women in America who are mentors, who are little league baseball coaches, who volunteer in after-school programs, who are engaged in the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts, and so on, I will lay you eight to five there is no profession that remotely approaches the percentage of participants as cops. So here are my questions. Number one, if, Mr. McGuire, you could convince your county probation officer--is it a county government where you all are? I mean, is it Montgomery County? Senator Sessions. Mobile. Senator Biden. Mobile. Excuse me. If Mobile County were willing to--and maybe they are--spend the resources and have the number of people around as probation officers who followed up like your folks follow up--you see that little guy sitting behind the chief? He is the man that runs that Boys and Girls Club down our way, and he has got men and women working for him who do what I suspect your guys do, Clyde. They pick up the phone when Charlie doesn't show up and say, Charlie, where are you, how are you? You know, come on in, and by the way, is your dog Spot still with you, right? I mean, practically, is that how it works? Mr. McGuire. Yes, sir, that is correct. Senator Biden. One of the things we find is that a study that the committee had done about 6 years ago--I can't vouch for what the numbers are now, but if you go to any school of social work in America, from the great universities to the not so great universities, and they tell you about all their--there is a great bank of data, as you well know, about prevention, and they will tell you that a probation officer or a case officer, if they get above 30 people, it is effectively ineffective. What happens is it becomes counterproductive because what they do is, in trying to reach 100, they don't reach anybody. I mean, they would really be better off percentage-wise to just pick 30 of their 100 and stay with the 30. They would end up with better numbers. Yet, during the decades of the 1970's and 1980's, we lost so many probation officers, so many case workers in the United States of America that in the average State, a probation officer had a caseload of 237 people. Now, one of the things I want to get around to here is how critical--and I would like each of you to speak on this if you have an opinion--how critical is the intense--that is, 2, 3, 4 times a week--follow-up with a child, a teenager, a young adult from the moment they are released from whatever institutional circumstance they find themselves in? They are put out on the street. How important is the intensity of the follow-up? Mr. Martin. I will respond to that, if I may. It is critical to aftercare. You have to have intensive contact, supervision, counseling. Another element that we have built in is we work with the parents the entire time that the child is in the program. When the child goes into aftercare, the family counseling continues, and contact with the parents. We feel very strongly that if we can empower the parents, then we have the most powerful aftercare person in the whole system. The other thing I would like to respond to is we have been doing an analysis of our aftercare program. We think we are doing a very good job, but we also think we could do a much better job. One of the things that we have identified is that you really have a hard time taking a kid in an intense, secure treatment environment and then releasing him one day and saying, you are going straight home. We want step-down group homes, and we are in the process right now of beginning to gather information about the best kinds of group homes and how all of that would be tied together. We are also looking at the fact that there are, I am sorry to say, a large number of kids in this country where, no matter what we do with their parents, they are not going to be suitable parents. And the youngsters we are dealing with have a history of violence and drug abuse and the kinds of things that foster parents are not going to be available for them. And as a practical matter, long-term group homes is the only way to save those children. Mr. Callaway. I think the follow-up is very important, and what you are going to find in a good Boys and Girls Club--it is not, you know, Robbie Callaway sitting up here talking about the money. It is the people who work in that club. I have Steve Salem with me here. He doesn't work in a club, but Steve Salem makes sure that every dime you give us is spent appropriately and that the people in the club are spending it appropriately. Chief Pounsberry--I won't call you Ricky up here again-- Chief Pounsberry can talk about the police officer that was at the Boys Club when we were growing up, Dutch Noon, a volunteer. Dutch Noon believed in Robbie Callaway. I had good parents. I was more fortunate, but Dutch Noon was a metropolitan police officer who worked in that Boys Club. He believed in me. That was important. So those kids coming out of the system, if somebody believes in them and somebody is saying to them, you are going to make it, instead of what they are hearing all the time, you are not going to make it, a lot of those kids will make it. Denzel Washington at my breakfast last week told this story, and some of you heard it. He was interviewed afterwards and a smart reporter, as they sometimes can be, came up and stuck a microphone in his face and said, yes, you are here from Hollywood, you are a celebrity, you are just doing this as a cause. And he said, let me tell you something. He said, I grew up, I had six friends. The only difference in me and the six was that I was a member of the Boys Club. Do you want me to tell you about the other six? Two of them are dead and four of them are serving 115 years combined. Follow-up is important. Senator Biden. What I am trying to get at--and you guys are touching it, but most of the programs we have for kids in our State, whatever the program is, are programs which either take them through, as Mr. Martin said, a program and then drop them back in the neighborhood, drop them back at home. The home may not work, but essentially they say, OK, we have done our job; we had you for 6 months at the Ferris School. That is our largest reform school; we used to call them reform schools. We had you in a drug rehab program, or we had you in a boot camp, and now it is done and you are out. And my experience in watching this is that they almost always fail because essentially you have changed nothing else in the environment of the kid, or even the young adult. By the way, I would argue this goes for 25-year-old criminals who are recidivists. You drop them right back where they were, and the hardest part to get across to the public because it kind of violates, in my opinion, our puritan work ethic--well, you know, we spent the money on you, we gave you a chance, you have got it now, you are clean, or you finished the boot camp and you came out good and now we are done, you are OK. And it is really hard, I am finding, at home to say, no, no, it is just beginning. All you did was sort of take them back to ground zero. I mean, you are a cop. I know you work with the Boys and Girls Clubs, but how important is it that there be something that they constantly have someone calling them, in effect? Mr. Pounsberry. Senator, I would say it is as important, if not more important than the prevention end, and the reason why I say that is--and you will see it in my written testimony--in the State of Delaware I recently had the opportunity to hear a warden speak. It costs $35,000 a year to incarcerate a prisoner in the State of Delaware--$35,000 a year. Senator Biden. A good Ivy League education. Mr. Pounsberry. Take a small percentage of that and use it for prevention to keep that person from going into an environment with those negative role models that are going to lead to recidivism. You take that same person that goes in there for whatever period of time and it is going to have a negative influence in their life unless they go to something that is more proactive, similar to the boot camp. With the boot camp atmosphere, they are getting the discipline, they are getting the structure that they may not have had, but while they are in the boot camp, the question that I have to ask is, is there any rehabilitation training that is going on at the same time? Are they being trained while they are in that boot camp atmosphere for when they leave incarceration so that they can walk into a job that is going to make a difference in their life, or do they just simply go through the boot camp structure and then go back to that environment that Senator Biden was talking about earlier? I think what they need is maybe to take a follow-up program that is going to be more important. As I have said, take that follow-up program like boot camp, give them some type of formal training so that when they do come out of incarceration, they have got an opportunity to do some good. Senator Biden. I must tell you very bluntly, two campaigns ago, because I am the guy that came up with the boot camp idea for the crime, I got the living devil beat out of me in a campaign because I was for boot camps. And the statistics showed up to that point that boot camps had no impact on recidivism. And they don't, unless it has the kind of imaginative piece that you have put in it, which isn't merely take a kid into boot camp, but you combine the boot camp with these other pieces. Absent that, all a boot camp is is a cheaper way to incarcerate a kid or an adult. In this case, in the crime bill it is adults that the boot camps are--but, again, I hope we can--and maybe the Senator and I can be the nucleus of getting our colleagues to focus on this notion that even if we provide the programs, there has got to be a way--I happen to agree with the drug testing--there has got to be a way that there is some tactile relationship, you know, going out and touching that kid or that person on a regular basis for a while, at least, until they sort of get in their routine, get themselves in a circumstance. The second question I want to raise with you is I have done an awful lot of Boys and Girls Clubs events across the country, and I am very proud of that, very proud of that. And in my State, there has been a burgeoning of new clubs in our little State, and I am proud of that. But I always kind of worry when they assemble all these bright-faced kids sitting in front of me for me to talk to them, and they range in age from kindergarten kids to kids who are hanging around after high school. I mean, it goes the gamut. And I always feel a little funny when I talk to them about preventing crime. I am actually not talking to them; I am talking to the news media that is there. And, in truth, the vast majority of those 3 million kids are not kids in trouble. They are good kids. I mean, if you look at the statistics, only 6 percent of all the kids in America are violent kids. We have got kind of three categories of kids. You have got 6 percent of violent kids. You have got yourself a much bigger percentage in the at- risk category that is probably a total of anywhere, depending on who you talk to, 2 to 3 million kids nationwide. And you have got the rest of the kids who aren't at risk, but the Boys and Girls Clubs are providing an incredibly positive environment for them. Now, here is my question, and you may not be able to answer it because I don't know whether there is any answer. My gut tells me--and I am not being smart when I say this--that a Boys and Girls Club that has a Robbie Callaway, who had good parents but was looking for alternatives of places to go, things to do, also attracts Denzel Washington's five friends, some of them, and attracts the kid who has been through trouble and out and is back in. The chemistry of having good kids hanging with kids at risk and who are, in the minds of the public, the bad kids helps the bad kids and the at-risk kids. Can you talk to me a little bit about the chemistry? And maybe I am dead wrong; maybe it doesn't matter. But the thing that impresses me about Boys and Girls Clubs is you have kids who are honor students, who come in and they are in a minority, they are in any community, and they are honor students. And then you have got the kid who is coming in who is the at-risk kid--truancy, does a little dope on the side, experiments, got in a little bit of trouble, but hasn't crossed the line and committed a crime yet. And then you have the kid in that same Boys and Girls Club who has gotten arrested for selling drugs or has gotten arrested for hot-wiring a car, gotten arrested for stealing a radio. And they are all together in that room, and the minority of them are the kids who stole the radio. Talk to me about that for a minute, if you can. Mr. Callaway. Well, even with the programs like this, I can take you in any Boys and Girls Club in the country, and anybody in the room, and I will defy you to tell me which one is the delinquent kid, or was the delinquent kid, and which one isn't. We do try to put them all together. You know, if a kid is in a specialized targeted outreach program I mentioned, you can't go in there and say that kid is identified as targeted outreach, he is going to be over here, or she is going to be over here. The positive influences will win out when you do it. I am saying that there are 14 million at-risk kids, is what the Federal Government used--14 million at-risk kids. We are only serving three million of them. I am not going to rest until we get a lot more, but those at-risk kids are served better by being with other kids in the Boys and Girls Clubs. And you can't tell the difference when you go in there, unlike when you put that kid into a detention center and if you don't give them that aftercare, they are going to come out tougher. Senator Biden. The last question I have--and I apologize for going so long, Mr. Chairman, but this is a hell of a panel. You don't have to answer it now; if you have time, think about it and maybe you can submit it in writing. I am not looking for any treatise. It can be just bullet points, no big deal. Are there other programs beyond Boys and Girls Clubs--and I assure you, Robbie, we are not going to give up on Boys and Girls Clubs, so this is not a zero sum game. This is not a game where, you know, if we find other programs that are good, we don't fund Boys and Girls Clubs. And I mean that sincerely. But are there other programs, initiatives that you are personally familiar with, any of you, that you think have the basic ingredients to be able to do the kinds of things that you all are doing that we should be paying attention to? And what are the ingredients that make your operation work the best? I saw the film. I am trying to figure a way to distill in a relatively short sound bite to our colleagues what cops, social workers, volunteers, Boys and Girls Clubs boards of directors folks--what they can all agree on are the two, three, four pieces of the puzzle that make this work. If we can do that, then we get over the argument. I mean, the boss and I, we fight sometimes about how to use prevention money or what form to put it in, whether it is a block grant or whether we put it in direct programs. I mean, we are in the same hymnal. We are sometimes not on the same page. A lot of guys up here aren't in the same hymnal. I mean, they aren't singing from the same hymnal, let alone on the same page. So it is a helpful thing for people whom we respect to tell us, beyond your own operation, what are some of the others that you have seen that you think make sense so we can start to work on a formula here. Mr. Martin. Well, just in the area of boot camps, there is a boot camp up in upstate New York, Sergeant Henry Johnson, and we heard the director of that program speak a few years ago and we were so impressed that we flew up and went out in the Catskill Mountains and spent a couple of days looking at his program. When I came home, I said to the staff we have a good program, but they have a better one. And we have completely redone our program and even had Colonel Corning, who is the director, down to Mobile to look at our program and to advise with us. I noticed in the paper this morning that Mayor Williams of Washington, DC, is creating a safe passages program where he is trying to bring together all of the social service agencies in coordination, I think, with the police department, trying to identify and work with, in a coordinated way, at-risk youth. I think that is excellent. It sounds a lot like the Boston project. In Mobile, AL, our police department has obtained an OJJDP grant and they have actually hired social workers who are based in the precincts, and the social workers are the ones that go and try to work out some of these domestic issues. The social worker is the person who is called when a child appears to have been abused or neglected. I think that program has a lot of potential. When you ask what are the pieces to the puzzle, I would say that number one is coordination. Mr. McGuire and I 10 years ago were working with a lot of similar kids and families, but there was not very much coordination. And as a result of this partnership, we now work with the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, the local mental health center. We work with our welfare department. The police have the social workers in the precincts. We now have juvenile probation officers who have also been assigned to those precincts. Senator Biden. I am taking too much of your time, but I appreciate that. You know, you have--I was going to say you have no idea, but you do have an idea. We have come so far. The idea that 20 years ago I would be sitting here and a cop is talking about having social workers in his precinct would have been laughable. It would have been the George McGovern--well, I shouldn't say that. It would have been close to laughable. But I always say this, and people don't believe me when I say it. Because I have such a great relationship with the cops, they think I am doing it, but this whole prevention piece of the crime bill was the cops' idea. They sat down at my table, and it was the cops. It wasn't the social workers; it was cops who had the idea. And the more we get that across to people, the more people realize this is--people are reluctant to waste--I mean, they are so accustomed to us wasting money and they are so accustomed to programs that waste money that the presumption is you go into a program and it means waste. I mean, program equates with waste, when you say the word ``program.'' Anyway, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your doing this. I look forward to continuing to work with you. Unfortunately, I am the ranking member--not unfortunately--well, it is unfortunate I am ranking. I don't like being ranking; I like being Chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee. And there is a hearing on Kosovo that started at 3:00 p.m., and I asked Bob Dole if he would come and testify and he is up there and I should go up and make an appearance. But before I leave, I want you to meet John Hollis. John, stand up a second. This guy is emblematic of the people Robbie has all across America who make the chief's job easier because he, day to day, runs these volunteers, coordinates them, and makes them work. John, I just want to publicly acknowledge you and thank you for what you do. Fortunately for the Boys and Girls Clubs, you are not the exception, but you are incredible. Thanks. Anyway, I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I apologize to the panel. It is first-rate. Senator Sessions. I know you have a lot of things that have been pressing on you this week, and I thank you for finding the time to participate in this program. You are correct, we are not very far apart. We can fuss pretty good, you and I, but we are really, when it gets down to it, not very far apart. Bob, I think before the Senator leaves, you modeled something after the Boston Night Light program and got some good results from that, you told me yesterday, actually stunning results. Would you share that with us? Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. Our city was very interested in trying to model after the Boston project and got together a group of us that went up there. One of the things was having the probation officers ride with the police officers to check curfews. And like a lot of communities, our detention center at that time was overflowing, and as a consequence we really didn't have anything much we could do if a kid was out after curfew. That probably was a less serious offense than the kid who was already occupying the detention bed. The city and county got together and significantly increased the number of detention beds to quite a few of them. During the period when we were running the curfew enforcement program without detention beds, we probably had about a 20- percent compliance. I used to tell people that probably the 20 percent who were home, you know, they didn't have anything to do that night so they were watching TV. After we got the detention beds, compliance starting going up, and compliance today is almost 100 percent. Senator Biden. Compliance coupled with enforcement? Mr. Martin. That is correct, combined with enforcement. Now, the thing that I think is so very significant, though, is that not only did the number of offenses start going down, but we have never filled up the new detention center. We, in fact, have fewer kids in detention than we did before we built them. Senator Sessions. They commit less serious crime if they are home when they are supposed to be. Isn't that right? Mr. Martin. That is absolutely correct. Senator Sessions. Less likely to get into some serious trouble. Then you have got to lock them up. Mr. Martin. That is correct. If I may, I would just like to respond to one thing Senator Biden said about having come so far. As I said earlier, I appeared before this committee in 1981 about violent juvenile offenders, serious juvenile offenders. All the comments that I can remember and all the questions I can remember had to do with how many secure beds, how many more police officers--in other words, it was all enforcement, punishment. And now we are realizing there has got to be a mix; you have got to have both. Senator Biden. Well, I know there has been an epiphany, Mr. Martin, when a man from Alabama goes to Boston. There is an epiphany. I acknowledge it publicly. [Laughter.] Senator Biden. And you are going to have a lot of Boston guys going to Alabama because they are going to be seeing the way you guys are running your operation. Mr. Martin. We are glad to have them. Senator Sessions. There is a little truth in both, and I am very impressed with what they have done in Boston. Senator Biden. That is a real altar call, man, that one. I mean, that is something different. I never thought I would be around to see that. Being from a border State, you know, we are kind of conflicted. We don't know whether we are North or South, so we get kind of confused occasionally. Mr. Martin. It takes us a while, but we are starting to learn. Senator Biden. No, no. By the way, I didn't mean to imply-- you have a lot to teach, you have a lot to teach. You are probably being modest, and I imagine you probably have people flying into Mobile now trying to figure out how you guys are doing your job. That is the part of this that the more we talk about it, the more we engage people, it is a synergy that people gain from this. And I think, Robbie, that is the single biggest thing about Boys and Girls Clubs. They look at you all and they say this works. And they say, well, maybe we can't get one, but we can do a piece of something. It is good stuff. Anyway, thank you, gentlemen. Chief, thanks for coming down. Mr. Pounsberry. Thank you, Senator. Senator Sessions. Well, it is an exciting opportunity. As we have had a decline in juvenile crime, it does provide, I guess, Chief and Bob, an opportunity to spend more time with the ones that are in trouble. Would that be fair to say? Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. Our caseloads have gone down, and so we can concentrate more on the kids who really need our services. Senator Sessions. Chief, do you have any program in your community-oriented policing which you feel like is allowing your police to be more personally engaged with young people who may be about to get in trouble or getting in trouble? Mr. Pounsberry. Absolutely, sir. The Seaford Police Department is not only involved with the Explorers group, but we are also involved with the HOST program, mentoring young people within the school system. The Explorers, I think, probably gives the officers much more satisfaction. These are young people that have ambitions to become a police officer or have a law enforcement career, and they pretty much can create a bond with one another, give them a little bit of guidance, give them a little bit of their experience as to what options are available to them in law enforcement. It is not just a police officer. You have got a number of other options as well, and I think that probably is the one that is most satisfying for all. Senator Sessions. In your communities where you assign officers, do they stay there long enough to get to know the kids in the neighborhood? Is that one of your goals? Mr. Pounsberry. Yes, sir; yes, sir. Senator Sessions. I think we lost that, don't you, some years ago? Mr. Pounsberry. I think we are going back to it, sir. Senator Sessions. People in automobiles and they didn't know their neighborhood. Mr. Pounsberry. Yes, sir. The automobile was quite an insulator, but now with the bicycle patrols and the motorcycle patrols and the regular meetings, I think we are able to interact with the community much more than we have. Senator Sessions. Well, on the thing I think sometimes Senator Biden and I don't quite hit it together is that I believe that if you had not had detention capacity, you could not have had a credible curfew enforcement program, which is what you basically just said, Bob. Mr. Martin. That is absolutely correct. Senator Sessions. You have to have a certain critical mass of capacity--you have been a probation officer for a long time--for those who just will not comply with the rules that are necessary, don't you? Mr. Martin. Yes. The thing is, is that being put in detention is not a death sentence. Detention is unpleasant, it is a consequence, but it is part of the teaching process. If you never punished a child that you are trying to rear, you are probably going to turn out a delinquent. Now, at the same time, if the only thing you do is punish that child, you are probably also going to turn out a delinquent. Senator Sessions. Clyde, how did you have the gumption to go outside of your Boys and Girls Club normal programs and get involved in these newer, more specialized activities, and do you recommend it to other Boys and Girls Clubs that they consider this? Mr. McGuire. Yes, sir, I do. How I got involved is I solicited Bob on our board of directors in the early 1980's. For years, we had received some referrals through the court system and through the churches and through the schools, and we had a pretty good record of working with at-risk youth. So when the concept of a boot camp came to Mobile, logically, we were the choice to get involved. And the more we looked at it, we decided to be the chief applicant because it was based upon certain philosophies. You know, who needed to hire the staff? Well, all the staff that run these programs are ours. What kind of person are we looking for in a staff person? We discussed that earlier. Are we located in communities where there is a tremendous need, communities where many of these kids were coming out of? Yes, we were. So, for a lot of reasons, we wanted to be involved. And quite frankly, I guess it is a non-traditional position, but we wanted to do a better job in serving teens. We have about 1,400 teenagers that are members in our organization and we need to be serving more than that. And so for many reasons, our board stepped out on faith and we felt like no one else could do this except Boys and Girls Clubs. And we had a good partnership with the court system; it has only become better. And, yes, sir, I would advocate this for other Boys and Girls Clubs. As Robbie so well said earlier, this may or may not be for every Boys and Girls Club across the country, but I would daresay that at least 10 percent of the 1,500 that are out there could do an admirable job. Senator Sessions. Clyde, you mentioned the GROWTH program, which is for girls. We have a lot of boot camps mainly focusing on boys, and youth corps camps and that sort of thing. What is unique about that program, and do you think that program is worth replicating? Mr. McGuire. Very much so. In our area, and it is probably holding true with national stats, juvenile crime among girls has tripled over the last 5 years. And it has not only increased, but the crimes that young ladies or young women are committing are more serious. And, again, when we analyzed what was available, there wasn't much available for these young women. For those reasons, we elected to start a GROWTH program. It is treatment-based, it is gender-sensitive, and we just finished its first year and we are pleased with the results. Again, it is a comprehensive approach, and it is actually based at Strickland Youth Center on the campus there and we send our kids through aftercare, through many of our different Boys and Girls Clubs. And we are very pleased. Senator Sessions. I have heard it said that girls, if there is a good intervention initiative, have lower recidivist rates and you have a better chance sometimes of changing their criminal activity than you do with boys. Have you heard those numbers? Bob, do either one of you want to comment on that? Mr. Martin. I made the comment to the late House of Representatives Member Mary Zogby not too long ago that we were really surprised at how well our girls were doing because the girls came in and they were better educated and a little brighter than the average boys. And she looked at me and said, well, are you surprised? But, yes, I think for whatever reason, biology or the way our society is organized, girls tend to be a little more compliant and a little more socialized. And as a consequence, you have to do different types of programming with them. We have never had a program before where we had eating disorders, but we have to have that in working with juvenile girls. Girls are much more concerned with relationships, and so where boys enjoy kind of the camaraderie of being part of a squad and going out and doing all the physical things, the girls need sometimes to talk and to discuss issues and relationships and that sort of thing. So it requires a different approach, and that was the reason why when everybody in Mobile was asking were we going to run a boot camp for girls, since it was so successful for boys, we said absolutely not. Traditionally, that is the way things have gone for girls. Most of the offenders are boys, so most of the programs are for boys; they are designed for boys. And every time somebody comes up with a good program, they turn around and say, well, let's do one of these for girls. So our approach was to say what are the needs of young girls and then start programming from that, rather than just putting them in a boys' program. Senator Sessions. And you get good results from this? Mr. Martin. Yes, sir, so far we have gotten good results. One of the figures I was batting around for a while to people that impressed me was that out of 65 girls who had completed the program, we had not had any new pregnancies. I think recently we had one, so that is not 100 percent, but that is part of the measure of success of a program like that. A very large number of our girls have had a pregnancy. I don't know what percentage, but a fair percentage have children of their own. Some even have more than one child of their own, so we are having to look now at programs that will work with a girl when she is pregnant. We are really emphasizing child rearing training and things of that sort. Senator Sessions. The aftercare concept--I read recently an article that confirmed, I guess, what our parents have told us. It does make a difference who you associate with, and if you are running with kids who are in trouble, kids will normally get in trouble. And that is a bigger factor than almost any other category in who is going to get in trouble. Is that another argument for a good aftercare program? When a child gets out of a more confined arrangement or something, you have got to watch who they are associating with? Clyde, do you want to respond? Mr. McGuire. Yes, sir, no question about it, and I wanted to comment on--this is leading toward a comment that Senator Biden made reference to. When you bring the young kid who is a good kid together with a kid who is on the bubble, an at-risk young person, and then the kid who is a delinquent into a Boys and Girls Club setting, what happens? What is that chemistry? Well, we set the table. We are going to ensure that there are going to be more kids there. Peer pressure works both ways, positively or negatively. We are ensuring that that young man who is a delinquent is going to be surrounded with young people who have done good things in their lives. So we lead them in the direction that we want them to go. Senator Sessions. Get them to develop a new set of friends? Mr. McGuire. Absolutely. Senator Sessions. And have a healthy place to gather. Mr. McGuire. And then again intensity comes back into play. We don't want that kind of relationship to be one time a week; we want it to be continuous. I think that becomes the challenge of agencies like Boys and Girls Clubs. Senator Sessions. Well, there are a lot of things that we can do. Does any one of you have any comments that you would like to make before we finish up? [No response.] Senator Sessions. There is a lot that we can do better. I, for one, having come up through the criminal justice system, that our juvenile justice systems are for the most part overwhelmed with the caseload. We had 3 and 4 times as many bed spaces for adults in 1990 as we did in 1980. I think it was a significant factor in the decline of crime because we were identifying repeat, dangerous offenders better and they are serving longer. But we didn't compensate in juvenile crime, and I have observed--and a lot of people haven't quite grasped this yet-- that juvenile courts more and more are like the one Judge Butler runs in Mobile. I have been to Ohio and other States and we have seen their programs. They have educational components, drug treatment components, mental health treatment components, family counseling and family participation, those kinds of things. They are indeed focusing on those who are most at-risk because they are the ones that are getting arrested, and I believe we need to strengthen that. As to prevention, in general, we are as a Government now spending $4.2 billion, according to GAO, on prevention programs, much of that money going through every agency in Government. This whole juvenile crime bill probably will come in at around $1 billion and some of that will be one-time money. So this is big-time money that is being spent. What I think causes us to wonder is, is that prevention money somehow being worked along to nurture Boys and Girls Clubs? Is the mental health treatment money being utilized to reach the ones who most need it? Is the drug awareness money being effectively gotten to the people who need it? We have got program after program after program, several hundreds, that deal with it. I think there are 17 mentoring programs in the country. There may be some in Mobile or Delaware you don't even know exist. If we get it all together in a focused way, we could be more effective. So I guess what I would say to you is I believe we are moving to help deal with the juvenile courts and all the related treatment and prevention that goes with that effectively. Fox Butterfield, of the New York Times, said that many of our juvenile courts are bankrupt. They just cannot possibly respond to the challenges that have been placed upon them. So we can get those courts under control, so you can actually get out and maintain your curfew, make sure that your drug testing--if they are getting in trouble with drugs, you know you have got to do something or they are going to be in trouble with other crimes. We need to continue to increase our funding for Boys and Girls Clubs. We doubled that over last year, I believe, just this year, and I think that reflects this Congress' respect for what you are accomplishing. And then we can take this other drug prevention money, some of which is being well spent, some of which probably is not, and make sure we are getting it into the mix effectively. If we do that and can keep crime going down and you have more money per child getting in trouble for the first time, we can make some historic positive accomplishments in reducing crime by young people. And when you reduce crime by young people, you are going to reduce the crime by adults. The sooner we stop them from getting involved in a life of crime, the less likely they will be involved as an adult and get those big sentences that are being thrown out for the third- and fourth-time convicted offender. So I am excited about what is happening. I think we should be positive. There will be in this juvenile crime bill, if we can get it through all the controversies and keep the core intact, which I think is not being assailed--we just have the controversial little things on the edges like guns and all that have threatened the bill--if we can do that, we will help get this juvenile court system under control, with the resources necessary, and I think that will be a significant step in reducing juvenile crime and violence. Thank you again, Robbie, for your leadership nationally; Bob and Clyde, in Alabama; and, Chief, for your leadership there in Delaware. If there is nothing else, we will stand adjourned. [Whereupon, at 3:56 p.m., the subcommittee was aadjourned.]