[Senate Hearing 107-386]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 107-386
NOMINATION OF C. LOUIS KINCANNON
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HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
ON THE
NOMINATION OF C. LOUIS KINCANNON TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE CENSUS BUREAU
__________
FEBRUARY 28, 2002
__________
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COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman
CARL LEVIN, Michigan FRED THOMPSON, Tennessee
DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii TED STEVENS, Alaska
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
MAX CLELAND, Georgia PETE V. DOMENICI, New Mexico
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi
JEAN CARNAHAN, Missouri ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
MARK DAYTON, Minnesota JIM BUNNING, Kentucky
Joyce A. Rechtschaffen, Staff Director and Counsel
Lee Ann Brackett, Counsel
Jason M. Yanussi, Professional Staff Member
Hannah S. Sistare, Minority Staff Director and Counsel
Johanna, L. Hardy, Minority Counsel
Jana C. Sinclair, Minority Counsel
Darla D. Cassell, Chief Clerk
C O N T E N T S
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Opening statements:
Page
Senator Lieberman............................................ 1
Senator Thompson............................................. 4
Senator Bennett.............................................. 5
Senator Cochran.............................................. 15
Prepared statements:
Senator Akaka................................................ 16
Senator Bunning.............................................. 16
WITNESSES
Thursday, February 28, 2002
Hon. George Allen, a U.S. Senator from the State of Virginia..... 1
Hon. Tom Sawyer, a Congressman from the State of Ohio............ 5
C. Louis Kincannon to be Director of the Census Bureau........... 7
Prepared statement........................................... 19
Biographical and financial information....................... 21
Pre-hearing questions and responses.......................... 27
Additional pre-hearing questions from Senator Akaka and
responses.................................................. 50
Post-hearing questions from Senator Durbin and responses..... 52
Post-hearing questions from Senator Bunning and responses.... 54
NOMINATION OF C. LOUIS KINCANNON TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE CENSUS BUREAU
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THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 28, 2002
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Governmental Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:34 p.m., in
room SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Joseph I.
Lieberman, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Lieberman, Thompson, Cochran, and
Bennett.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LIEBERMAN
Chairman Lieberman. Good afternoon. The hearing will come
to order. Senator Allen, do you have time to suffer the burden
of hearing the opening statements of the three of us, or are
you in a rush to get somewhere?
Senator Allen. I was actually supposed to co-chair a
meeting with Senator Sarbanes in Foreign Relations at 2:45 p.m.
Chairman Lieberman. Why don't you go ahead? We will go out
of order and have you do the introduction and then we will come
back and do our opening statements. Pleasure to welcome you
here.
Senator Allen. Thank you for your indulgence, Mr. Chairman
and Members of the Committee.
Chairman Lieberman. Not at all.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. GEORGE ALLEN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE
STATE OF VIRGINIA
Senator Allen. I appreciate it very much. It is a pleasure
to be here, and it is a pleasure and privilege to introduce an
outstanding Virginian, Charles Louis Kincannon--he goes by
Louis Kincannon as opposed to Charles. I would like to thank
you for your consideration of his nomination as director of the
U.S. Census Bureau. He is here with his wife Claire and
daughter Alexandra and her husband Paul. There is another
daughter, India, who is off in the hallway with a granddaughter
Dahlia. You might have--there she is. I heard her. She heard
her name. Sounds like Dahlia. There she is.
Chairman Lieberman. We heard Dahlia, yes. It is a welcome
sound in this room. We do not hear it too often.
Senator Allen. It is appropriate, Mr. Chairman, that a
Virginian be selected to lead the Census Bureau into the 21st
Century. As you all know as students of history, the first
census was done back in Jamestown in the early 1600's, even
before Virginia and our country was an independent nation. That
first census conducted in our Nation in 1790 counted 3.9
million inhabitants. That would be a relatively small populated
State these days, but that is what our country had then.
Now the Census Bureau, as it has been transformed through
our history will be soon celebrating its 100th birthday, and I
am very confident, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Kincannon who himself
has had a long and respected history with the Census Bureau, is
the right choice to direct the Census Bureau in the next
century. I would like to take a few moments to highlight Mr.
Kincannon's experience and accomplishments in the Census Bureau
since joining the bureau as a statistician back in 1963.
Mr. Kincannon is well respected within and outside the
Census Bureau. He is only the second career civil servant to be
nominated as director of the Census Bureau. Mr. Kincannon
already has experience that makes him very well prepared to
take on the role as director, having served as acting director
for 9 months during the administration of President Ronald
Reagan, and again for nearly a year under the administration of
the first President Bush.
In addition, he has served for more than 10 years as deputy
director, which is the second longest tenure of anyone in this
post. Mr. Kincannon's service as deputy director continued
under three directors. This is just a brief example of Mr.
Kincannon's long history of experience and service that makes
him uniquely qualified to take the helm of the U.S. Census
Bureau, notwithstanding the sounds of his granddaughter Dahlia.
So I know that Representative Sawyer is going to want to
have some words to share with the Committee, and I thank you
all for having this hearing. I am sure you will have good
questions of Mr. Kincannon and will find him a person that you
will be very confident to be heading the Census Bureau and
doing it in an accurate and fair manner.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Senators Bennett and Thompson.
Chairman Lieberman. Thank you, Senator Allen. Appreciate
your coming here to introduce Mr. Kincannon.
Mr. Kincannon, we are happy to have you before the
Committee today because the post to which you have been
nominated exerts enormous influence over the lives of all
Americans. Quite literally, you are one of the people who will
decide who is counted and who is not; who will benefit from
Federal resources and who will not.
I just had a--I do not know why I turned to you, Senator
Thompson, but I had a flashback to a wonderful movie, The Jerk.
Do you remember that one with Steve Martin where he----
Senator Thompson. I beg your pardon. [Laughter.]
Chairman Lieberman. I was thinking of movies, not jerks,
when I turned toward you, Senator Thompson.
Senator Thompson. Those two ideas did come together.
Chairman Lieberman. No. When he finds his name in a phone
book and runs around screaming, I am somebody. So it is with
the census. We did not rehearse that----
Senator Thompson. But first he said the new phone books are
here, the new phone books are here.
Chairman Lieberman. I see you remember the movie.
So it is essential that the Census Bureau chief be fair-
minded, a professional administrator who will guarantee not
only the most accurate and scientifically sound count, but who
will also guarantee that all elements of our country,
especially people who have been historically undercounted, are
included in our census tabulations.
Mr. Kincannon, your years of public service speak very well
for you, Beginning your career 30 years ago as a Census Bureau
statistician you have steadily risen through the ranks. In 1975
you left the Bureau for the Office of Management and Budget
where you worked with Jim Miller at OIRA and received a
commendation from then Vice President Bush for your work on
regulatory reform. In 1981, Mr. Kincannon returned to the
Census Bureau as deputy director and served in that post
through the first President Bush's administration. Twice during
that period he served as acting director, and in 1992 was
appointed the first chief statistician in the Organization for
Economic Cooperation and Development.
Mr. Kincannon, I would say for the record, was born in
Waco, Texas, is a graduate of the University of Texas at
Austin, did graduate work at Georgetown, G.W., and the
University of Maryland. Except for 8 years in Paris, which we
will probably not question you about here today, Mr. Kincannon
and his wife, as Senator Allen indicated, have resided in
Virginia. They have two daughters.
Now here is an interesting next part of my statement, which
goes right to the function of counting. The original version
said, and expecting their first grandchild soon. Then we heard
Dahlia and it was changed to, another grandchild soon. But is
it the second or----
Mr. Kincannon. It is a commentary on the length of the
confirmation process. [Laughter.]
Chairman Lieberman. Very well said.
Senator Thompson. We asked for that, didn't we?
Chairman Lieberman. This is the second grandchild you are
expecting?
Mr. Kincannon. It is the second one we are expecting, yes.
We are expecting more than that, but----
Chairman Lieberman. Eventually, right. That is the way we
feel about our population, too.
Obviously you have demonstrated your loyalty to and
affection for the Census Bureau, and have twice proven your
expertise as the Bureau's acting director.
Most people know that the Bureau is the government agency
that counts the population every 10 years. Less known is that
it regularly provides government, business, and academia with
an updated picture of who we Americans are as individuals,
communities, and a Nation. With so many aspects of our society
dependent on the Bureau's work, the director must encourage
cooperation and openness among his ranks. The agency has long
been criticized for its insular nature, so I hope that you will
work to make the Bureau a more customer friendly place.
I also want to add a word about the controversy that has
surrounded the fairness of the decennial count. This is a
controversy that has now gone on for 2 decades. We are a Nation
of entrepreneurs, scientists, and thinkers; the most
technologically advanced country on the globe. Our population
counts, I believe, should reflect that mastery.
In other words, we should be using the most advanced
methods at our disposal to capture the most accurate portrait
of our people. We know that the actual enumeration, the effort
to count every head, does not provide an accurate count of the
country's diverse population, particularly the poor, African-
Americans, Hispanic Americans, and Native Americans.
We also know that statisticians have long used a variety of
methods to help them provide more accurate data. The Census
Bureau has used these methods to try to make the decennial
census more accurate, but for a variety of reasons has not
incorporated the results into its final census numbers.
Consequently, we cannot be sure that our House seats are
correctly apportioned, our Congressional districts are properly
drawn, or our government resources directed to all the people
they should be directed to. In turn, the decisions of private
investors, the blueprints of community planners, the efforts of
our local school boards, and many others are different than
they might otherwise be.
So I will say to you directly that I am concerned about the
Bureau's methodology, but this is not, of course, just a
statistician's battle. This is about the equitable treatment of
all Americans, especially those whose voices are too often not
heard. The Census Bureau serves a very broad constituency,
which is the constituency that contains uniquely every
American. I think it must be responsive to that fact.
Senator Thompson.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR THOMPSON
Senator Thompson. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Congratulations, Mr. Kincannon, on your nomination. I am
pleased to have the opportunity to discuss some issues with you
today that are important to all of us. We all know the Census
Bureau conducts an actual head count of Americans every 10
years, but of course, the Bureau does much more than that.
Economic data is the Census Bureau's primary program commitment
during the other 9 years. These programs cover every non-farm
sector of the economy, feature industry and geographic detail,
and provide key measures of current performance.
Every 5 years the Bureau uses censuses to gather detailed
statistics about virtually every business, industry, farm, and
government, and more frequently the Bureau uses monthly,
quarterly, and annual surveys to update and extend the censuses
with current economic statistics. These programs provide key
measures of current economic performance and are widely used by
policy officials and economic analysts.
Mr. Kincannon has a strong background in issues related to
the census and to statistics, and he will bring 40 years of
experience and service as director of the Census. I believe his
background and expertise more than qualifies him for this
position and demonstrates his commitment to public service.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Lieberman. Thanks, Senator Thompson. Senator
Bennett.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR BENNETT
Senator Bennett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Kincannon, I
look forward to having a dialogue with you here about some
issues that I have. But I want to make it very clear, I support
your nomination. I am prepared to vote for it in Committee; I
am prepared to vote for it on the floor. I think you bring an
expertise to this position that we can all be proud of, and
that you can be proud of as the capstone of your career. It is
not always that folks who go the civil servant route end up
presiding over the agency that they work for, but it is a
demonstration of the high esteem in which you are held that you
have the kind of bipartisan support you have.
So with that, Mr. Chairman, I look forward to the question
period.
Chairman Lieberman. Thanks, Senator Bennett. Congressman
Sawyer, great timing. We welcome you and would be glad to hear
an opening statement or introduction at this time, if you would
like.
OPENING STATEMENT OF CONGRESSMAN TOM SAWYER, FROM THE STATE OF
OHIO
Mr. Sawyer. Thank you very much. Chairman Lieberman,
Senator Thompson, and Senator Bennett, it really is a pleasure
to join you here today in this introduction of President Bush's
nominee for the position of Census director, Charles Louis
Kincannon. I have been privileged to introduce two other
director nominees to this Committee, Dr. Barbara Everett
Bryant, who served in the administration of President George
Bush, and Dr. Martha Farnsworth Ritche, President Clinton's
first Census chief.
If confirmed, Mr. Kincannon will join a distinguished group
of mathematical and social scientists who have led the agency
through social transition, demographic shifts, and political
mine fields. As you know, I chaired the House Subcommittee on
Census and Population from 1989 through 1994, and it was in
that capacity that I first met Louis, who had just assumed the
post of acting director in the then-infant first Bush
Administration. From different perspectives but with common
goals we forged an effective working relationships. It has
endured as we discovered shared interests beyond the census,
per se, particularly with respect to international statistics.
The 1990 Census was conducted amid high expectations and
deep controversy. In the crucial year before the count Louis
took the reins as acting director. It was not an easy time.
Litigation had imposed late design changes, Congressional
concerns had stalled final content decisions, local
stakeholders were demanding a more thorough preparation. Louis
approached each challenge with the steady determination of a
seasoned manager, and the sensitivity of a political veteran,
working closely and cooperatively with the Congress to lay the
final groundwork for the execution of the Census.
It was during his tenure at the Bureau that Louis'
leadership role extended beyond the obvious stature of the
positions that he both held and assumed. His contributions
included many improvements to the Census Bureau that paved the
way for continued innovations in 2000, including the first
single-night enumeration of people living in shelters and on
the streets, targeted advertising campaigns developed by
minority-owned firms, and the first use of digital maps to
replace the onerous hand-drawn ones.
Louis Kincannon is poised to take up the leadership mantle
in his own right as the agency is at another crossroads. The
outcome of 2000--how shall I put this?--challenged the
confidence of many stakeholders. Accurate benchmarks like
demographic analysis and intercensal population estimates
appeared to slip. Shifting results from the coverage evaluation
survey and the Bureau's decision not to use the survey may have
eroded goodwill that had been built up through the successful
Census 2000 partnership program.
As the agency prepares to launch its largest new
initiative, the American Community Survey, the support of
stakeholders must be earned, cannot be taken for granted, and
needs the leadership of a man who has earned that trust for
many years.
It also faces management challenges at the Bureau that are
in some ways unique among civilian agencies. The census
requires years of planning, preparation, followed by lightning
execution in real time, without flaws. More broadly, at a time
of heightened concern about privacy and confidentiality of
personal information, the Bureau has to demonstrate its
relevance to the Nation's security and economic objectives
while preserving its independence as a statistical agency.
I do not have any doubt that Louis Kincannon is up to those
tasks and that he commands the respect both inside and outside
the agency to restore confidence in the agency's competence and
integrity, a competence and integrity that I believe has always
been there but whose confidence may have been shaken.
He is an excellent choice to head the Census Bureau at a
difficult time in history. His prior leadership will bring
stability in the wake of senior staff retirements. His
international experience will add a fresh and important
perspective as we document our Nation's social and economic
recovery in the wake of global turmoil. With his nomination the
President pays tribute to a career marked by high professional
and ethical standards, competence and grace under pressure, and
an absolute commitment to public service. The recognition is
well deserved and I am pleased to be able to be here to urge
the Committee to act quickly and without hesitation.
Chairman Lieberman. Thank you very much, Congressman
Sawyer, for a very thoughtful statement, for taking the time to
come over to this side of the Hill to say that about the
nominee. I appreciate it very much. Our goal is to have this
nominee confirmed before the family has another grandchild.
We will proceed. For the record, let me say that Mr.
Kincannon has submitted responses to a biographical and
financial questionnaire, has answered prehearing questions
submitted by the Committee and additional questions from
individual Senators, and has had his financial statement
reviewed by the Office of Government Ethics. Without objection,
this information will be made part of the hearing record with
the exception of the financial data which is on file and
available for inspection in the Committee's office. In
addition, the FBI file has been reviewed by Senator Thompson
and me pursuant to Committee rules.
Mr. Kincannon, our Committee rules require that witnesses
at nomination hearings give their testimony under oath, so I
would ask you at this point to please stand and raise your
right hand.
[Witness sworn.]
Chairman Lieberman. I thank you. Please be seated. The
record will show, if it did not audibly, which I believe it
probably did, that the witness answered in the affirmative. We
welcome you officially, and your family, and would be glad to
hear a statement that you might want to make at this time.
Mr. Sawyer. Mr. Chairman, if I might be excused, I have an
airplane I need to catch.
Chairman Lieberman. Definitely.
Mr. Sawyer. I thank you very much.
Chairman Lieberman. Safe travel and thanks for stopping by.
TESTIMONY OF C. LOUIS KINCANNON\1\ TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE CENSUS
BUREAU
Mr. Kincannon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It certainly is an
honor to me, as well as a pleasure, to appear before this
Committee today. If I remember correctly, I did appear in this
room once before at the side of Wayne Grandquist at the time he
was an associate director at the Office of Management and
Budget; maybe a name known to you and someone I have lost track
of. Maybe we can catch up with him someday.
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\1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Kincannon appears in the Appendix
on page 19.
Biographical information appears in the Appendix on page 21.
Pre-hearing questions appear in the Appendix on page 27.
LAdditional pre-hearing questions from Senator Akaka and responses
appear in the Appendix on page 50
LPost-hearing questions from Senator Durbin and responses appear
in the Appendix on page 52.
LPost-hearing questions from Senator Bunning and responses appear
in the Appendix on page 54.
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It is also one of the greatest honors of my life to be
nominated for this post by President Bush. It is a pleasure
because President Bush is a fellow Texan, and it is also a
pleasure because the Census Bureau sought me out when I was
still in university, and hired me, and invested in me over a
period of time. It gave me a career that was as interesting as
anyone could hope for, and I am very glad to have an
opportunity to rejoin that community.
It is a community that sometimes can be seen as insular,
but it is also solid and performs great services for the
country. My task will be in part to make sure that that
strength is maintained and the insularity becomes more
transparent all along.
I am certainly grateful for the introduction of Senator
Allen, who has had to take me on faith, and also for
Congressman Sawyer who knows me from the past. So I am very
honored to have both of them introduce me to this Committee.
If the Senate confirms me in this post I will build on the
base of a very good 2000 Census. Those results depended on the
professional staff, they depended on the leadership of Dr.
Bryant, of Dr. Riche, and Dr. Prewitt, who were the directors
in the period of planning and lead-up to the Census 2000 and
through it. The success of the census in 2000 would not have
been possible without the support of the Congress. Not just a
token of support, but with a lot of time spent understanding
the problems of the census and making sure the resources
necessary and the guidance necessary were available to the
Census. I am very grateful for that.
I hope to build on that success with your help and
cooperation. We have an opportunity to do an even better job in
2010, given what we have learned and what we see before us as
steps that we can take, particularly through the introduction
through the American Community Survey, improvements in
geographic tools, to build on successes in the past. And very
intensive cooperation with the users of the results, which of
course, includes the Congress, but includes the governors,
mayors, and other local government officials as well as the
business and academic community.
We also need to make improvement in economic statistics.
Our economic security depends in part, an important part, on
what we know about the activities in our economy. I believe
that it is not my view alone that this area has not received in
recent years the resources it probably needs to keep up with
the accurate description of a rapidly changing economy. This
need is not confined to the statistics produced by the Census
Bureau and I will, if confirmed in this post, work with the
sister agencies of the Census Bureau in making sure that a
practical program is proposed to the Congress.
I also want to say that I would pay close attention to
recruiting and retention at the Census Bureau. The whole
Federal Government faces a challenge as demographic changes
come upon us, in retaining good staff when they reach
retirement age, or even when they respond to competitive salary
offers, and in recruiting and interesting young people to come
and spend the 20 or 30 years that is necessary to have a high
payoff for them as well as for the country.
The Census Bureau cannot solve these problems by itself,
but I believe I can help by making it continue to be a good
place to work that offers satisfaction to employees, and a
sense of mission in the interest of the country.
I thank you for your indulgence in this and I think a copy
of this statement has been submitted for the record, if it is
permitted, sir. Thank you.
Chairman Lieberman. Thank you. Thanks for a very good
opening statement. One of the last points you made anticipated
one of the questions I was going to ask, which I always ask
when Senator Voinovich of Ohio is not here because he is
focused on this challenge of human capital management, which is
to say, assuring that we are retaining and attracting good
people to Federal service.
It was interesting to hear you recall that the Census
Bureau found you, I guess at the University of Texas, and
recruited you here. I do not know how much we go out any more
to recruit at college campuses. I do not know about the Census
Bureau, but the Federal agencies generally. Just as that
process ended up attracting you to a lifetime of service, which
in this nomination culminates--does not end--we have to assure
the same for succeeding generations. So I appreciate that you
mentioned that.
Let me ask first some questions that we ask of all
nominees. Is there anything that you are aware of in your
background which might present a conflict of interest with the
duties of the office to which you have been nominated?
Mr. Kincannon. No, sir, I am not.
Chairman Lieberman. Do you know of anything personal or
otherwise that would in any way prevent you from fully and
honorably discharging the responsibilities as director of the
Census?
Mr. Kincannon. No, sir, to the limit of my competence.
Chairman Lieberman. Do you agree without reservation to
respond to any reasonable summons to appear and testify before
any duly constituted Committee of Congress if you are
confirmed?
Mr. Kincannon. Yes, sir, I do.
Chairman Lieberman. Great. Let me get to a point that I
raised in my opening statement. I will begin with a GAO report
in 1998 that said, ``Certain racial and ethnic minorities have
long been undercounted in the Census.'' The Bureau has
attempted, I know, to quantify this undercount using
statistical sampling methods. To date adjusted estimates have
not been used for any official purpose or released for public
review.
So my first question is, do you agree, first on a baseline
question, that the decennial census has historically and
persistently undercounted certain populations?
Mr. Kincannon. Yes. The Census Bureau itself has long
provided the evidence that is the basis for that understanding,
and for planning for efforts to try to correct it.
Chairman Lieberman. So let me then ask you first what your
general thoughts are about the feasibility and desirability of
using statistical methods to make the decennial census more
accurate.
Mr. Kincannon. As to desirability, I think it is desirable
for us to use tools at hand that can produce a better count of
the population. That has to be limited by what the law
provides, and it has to be limited by the practicality of that
work so that we can produce results that stand up to scientific
scrutiny, and alas, these days it has to stand up to legal
challenge as well. So those are limits to consider.
As to the feasibility, I retain a confidence that at some
level of geographic detail it will be feasible to do this. I
have less confidence now, after 20 years of the Census Bureau
working on this, that we can produce satisfactory changes in
data, or adjustments in data, for very small levels of
geographic detail. But I do retain the confidence that we can
do it at higher levels of geography.
At least a couple of countries in the world adjust their
census results using similar techniques or analogous techniques
at the province or state level. The law currently stands in the
way of doing that for purposes of apportionment, and it would
remain for the Congress, I think, to decide whether that should
change. But that surely would be technically possible. Whether
it would make a significant change in the results is another
question quite aside.
Chairman Lieberman. Interesting. I was going to ask you
what would be the break point or the line between an area that
was too small for a statistical method to be valid and one that
would be large enough.
Mr. Kincannon. Depends on the use that the data are going
to be put to. Redistricting is a very conflicted task and its
challenge----
Chairman Lieberman. We have noticed.
Mr. Kincannon. Figures used there--we can produce estimates
of unemployment in the statistical system for comparatively
small areas. But those are not customarily challenged in court
or, other than in an argumentative sense, in the political
arena either. And they are produced with a margin of error on
either side.
That is not satisfactory for redistricting, at least in my
limited experience with that. You cannot say that this line can
be drawn here or it could be drawn a little over there and do
the best you can. That does not work very satisfactorily. I am
not sure that it is a happy situation if we were to say the
final seat assigned by the method of equal proportions in the
House of Representatives goes either to one State or another
plus or minus 15 percent. That would see us in court and I do
not know quite what a court would do with that. So it would tie
up potentially the other body in discussing that.
So the use has to be defined. If we are going to use the
figures for allocating payments to hospital districts or to
fairly large areas like that, a State or a large city, and the
results are to be used in an administrative program where they
do not have to withstand extremely strict legal scrutiny, then
I think that some job could be done with that.
Chairman Lieberman. That will continue to be a topic of
interest and we look forward to continuing the dialogue on it.
Let me ask you a similar question. As you know better than
I, demographic analysis which uses birth, death, migration, and
other key records to determine national estimates of the
population is used to check the accuracy of the 10-year census.
Although demographic analysis has been considered a fairly
effective method to determine overall population statistics
there are critics who say that it is increasingly less reliable
because its estimates fail to fully account for increases in
immigration which have been rather sharp in recent times.
I wanted to ask what your opinion is of the Census Bureau's
current ability to track both documented and undocumented
immigrants for Census purposes.
Mr. Kincannon. We presume that the problems in tracking
documented immigrants are less than for undocumented
immigrants. But none of the institutions of the country seem to
do a particularly outstanding job in tracking immigrants once
they are in the country. It is a difficult job and the approach
toward the problem has been based on this country's tolerance,
and indeed encouragement of migration, to build the country. I
do not think any of us wants to see that change.
I have not looked at the methods used in the Census Bureau
for estimating immigration for almost 10 years. I think that
the methods for tracking legal migration are pretty robust. I
think that the task of measuring undocumented immigration is
much more difficult, and I am not able to speak to whether
improvements have been made in the last 10 years.
Chairman Lieberman. One more question for me on this round.
This Committee has worked on the Government Performance and
Results Act with some intensity and pride. That, as you know,
calls for setting performance goals, measures for programs in
the Federal Government. The GAO has used measures like the real
dollar cost per household, the return in proxy rates, for
Census forms in productivity measures to evaluate the Census.
Do you think these are appropriate performance measures for the
next census? If not, what might you recommend?
Mr. Kincannon. I think that they are useful. I do not know
that those kinds of measures alone tell the whole story.
Certainly I think it is correct to observe that the cost per
household has risen sharply over the recent 30 or 40 years of
census taking, certainly. How does one account for the value of
ensuring that every person is counted, or doing the best job
possible? That is a question that is not really amenable to a
scientific answer. It is worth a lot. It is like counting votes
accurately; it is worth a lot to try to do.
The Congress proved more generous in the last round of
census taking than ever before and it no doubt reflected the
Congress' concern that we do the very best job that we could.
That paid off. I hope that we do not approach the Congress with
a similar degree of increase for 2010, but I do want to make
sure that we make clear to the Congress what we are doing and
what we think we can buy in terms of better counting of all the
people, because I think that is an important question.
Chairman Lieberman. Good. Actually I had some numbers here;
that the real dollar cost per household for the census went
from $24 in 1980 to $56 in 2000. I would urge you to think
about performance measures and we welcome your recommendation
to us and to GAO about how to go forward with those.
Senator Thompson.
Senator Thompson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The
Congressional Budget Office has been seeking information from
the Census Bureau that it wishes to use to analyze Social
Security reform proposals. I am sure you are aware of that. It,
of course, is going to be an issue that is very important to
this Congress. It is very important that we have the best
information possible in addressing this issue.
Of course, we are also mindful of the importance of
confidentiality. CBO is working on, or has suggested ways, in
which confidentiality could be maintained. I know the Bureau
holds its information very closely, as it should. But will you
work with the CBO to address this problem and give it due
consideration if you can work out the confidentiality
difficulties?
Mr. Kincannon. Yes, certainly we will work--I will work
closely with the CBO to try to meet their needs in the context
of the law. I do not know the details of the needs of the CBO
or of the current working relationship between the Census
Bureau and the CBO. I do know that the agreement was revised as
recently as October and I would be very happy to meet with the
director of the CBO or whoever to understand what shortcomings
or what kinds of problems may still exist.
We are constrained by the law and the law is there for a
good reason. I am fond of saying that when you step up on a
front porch and ask a household for private information,
information they regard as their own business, you have to have
a fairly simple story to tell about confidentiality. Now we
have a simple story to tell, and I want to continue having a
simple story.
But I do pledge that I will work with the CBO to try to
meet those extremely important needs.
Senator Thompson. It does not look to me like it is
insurmountable. I do not believe they need names or information
that would compromise what you are concerned about. They do
have access to IRS information, and classified information and
things of that nature. So I think they have proven that they
can protect confidential information. So I would like to see
you all get together and sit down and discuss it and see what
the responsible thing to do is on that so both of those
considerations could be served.
Second, I am sure you are aware many Congressional offices
received complaints about the long form during the last census
and we are starting to hear from some folks about the American
Community Survey which is currently implemented now in selected
areas. I know the Bureau spent a lot of money educating the
public about the decennial census and it appears to have done
some good.
What do you anticipate the Bureau will do to inform the
public about not only the fact that there is an ACS but why it
is needed?
Mr. Kincannon. We will try to explain to them that first it
will avoid a lot of Americans having to report in 2010 if the
ACS is successful in its implementation. We will also explain
directly to them, and hopefully through governors, mayors, and
city councils, and so on, the great benefits of new data
available every year for areas of 60,000 population or more.
That is a big deliverable to the public, local officials, that
the Census Bureau really has not been able to offer before. It
does require that people answer questions, but if they
understand the benefits in their community then it can be
helpful.
I think we need to make sure that local governments and
local media know when we are doing that work in their area and
why, so that they can explain to the public. We need to make
sure that Congressional offices are aware of what is happening
and when, so that they can give an answer as to why this is
useful to local government and to the national----
Senator Thompson. It is going to require a public relations
campaign though, is it not?
Mr. Kincannon. Yes, sir.
Senator Thompson. Thank you, Mr. Kincannon, that is really
all I have. I am glad that you are willing to continue your
public service. At first blush, one would think that
mathematics and statistics would be a rather dry area for some
people, until you quickly realize in this job you are counting
people and voters and things of that nature and it can become
quickly fraught with political peril.
I would just urge you, as I know you will, to avoid
pressure from the left or the right and do not worry about how
things are going to turn out in the end but faithfully follow
the process, follow the law, use intellectual honesty and
things that you know are right and let the chips fall where
they may. I know you will do that.
Mr. Kincannon. Thank you, Senator. I will also warn you,
you may hear from my granddaughter again since she lives in
Knoxville these days.
Senator Thompson. Does she really? I know there was
something about you I liked. Thank you very much.
Chairman Lieberman. Just another Tennessee voter coming
along. Senator Bennett.
Senator Bennett. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Kincannon, I simply want to follow up on the comments
made by Senator Thompson. If I can do so without reaching too
far, I want to give you an analogy that I have just lived
through on the question of information sharing. We have just
concluded in Utah the 2002 Olympics and everyone is raving
about how smoothly they went and how easily things seemed to
work. I have said to Governor Ridge that the Olympics in Utah
serve as a model for information sharing to a degree that
Federal, State, and local officials have never ever experienced
before.
I walked into a room roughly the size of this one in which
you had sitting at computer terminals--and there was one about
every four feet--representatives of all of the various agencies
that were involved in the Olympics. Now we should understand
that the prime task of leading Olympic security rested with the
Secret Service since this was designated as a national Secret
Service security event. The President was there and then the
Vice President was there.
But on the top of these computers were little cards like
the one that is in front of you listing the agency that was
represented there. You had FEMA, the Secret Service, the FBI,
and then you had the Weber County Sheriff's Department, the
Salt Lake City Police, the University of Utah Police
Department. You say, why the University of Utah? Well, the
Olympic village was at the University of Olympic and the
opening and closing ceremonies were in the stadium of the
University of Utah.
It was absolutely seamless, the sharing of information, and
absolutely unprecedented. Because always before a Federal
agency would say, this is ours, and a State agency would say,
this is ours, and then the policeman on the ground says, I am
the first responder and I am not going to tell you Feds these
kinds of things. Everybody told everybody everything and it had
a tremendous impact on seeing to it that the thing went very
well.
So I give you that example. The Chairman and Senator
Thompson know that I am pushing for information sharing in
cyberterrorism for exactly the same reason: That things work
better when people who have significant responsibilities have
access to accurate information. Now the hang-up with the CBO,
as I understand it, is that the law says you cannot share
information unless it has a Census purpose. I am not sure the
Congress has the slightest idea what a Census purpose is. I
think the definition of that term probably lies with you.
My understanding is that you have shared information--by
you I mean the Census Bureau, not you individually. You have
shared information quite regularly and quite openly with a
fairly wide number of Executive Branch agencies. But when CBO
has come, Census Bureau has said, no, that does not serve a
Census purpose and you have restricted, under the rubric of
following the law, giving information to the legislative branch
that you have been willing to give to the Executive Branch.
Now as Senator Thompson indicated, CBO has made its own
arrangements with some parts of the Executive Branch;
interestingly enough, the most sensitive being the IRS. So the
information you share with the IRS for a Census purpose, the
IRS then shares with CBO for a very legitimate governmental
purpose on the part of CBO.
What I am hoping you will work toward is avoiding the bank
shot. In other words, sharing information directly with the
Congress. The CBO is an arm of the Congress. And saying that
the legislative branch should be treated with the same
definition courtesy that the Executive Branch is treated. So if
you share information with an agency in the Executive Branch--
clearly it has to have a Census purpose under the law--you
would be equally willing to share that information with the
legislative branch. By definition, saying if it has a Census
purpose for one it has a Census purpose for the other.
Yes, we need to look for the safeguards on security and
confidentiality. I have been assured by Dan Crippen of the CBO
that he is more than willing to work out all those safeguards.
But I would hope you would do as I have described in your
definition of a Census purpose. And if you discover with
competent legal counsel that you cannot, that you would be
willing to notify this Committee, or certainly me, how you
think the law ought to be changed in order to achieve an
intelligent kind of information sharing.
Because if indeed in a past life, prior to the introduction
of the information age into our world, Congress put shackles on
you that previously made sense and do not make sense now, and
you feel you cannot in good conscience by definition change
those shackles, let us know so that we can change them. Because
that is what the Congress does is pass laws.
So to say, we cannot because of the law, you are dealing
with the people who make the laws and we want to know what
recommendations you would have to change the law to allow you
to achieve what I consider, and Senator Thompson obviously
considers, a very salutary purpose of seeing to it that the
decisionmakers, just like the security people in the Olympics,
all talk to each other, so that you have a seamless flow of
information to the people that really need it, really can use
it, and that the country as a whole will benefit.
Now if you want to respond, that would be fine. But I just
take that point in support and strengthening the point that
Senator Thompson has already made.
Mr. Kincannon. I will not respond at length, but I feel I
should comment on a very cogent argument, a good sermon, as it
were, in reminding us of what we are doing this for. You are
right, the Census Bureau in the past 20 or 30 years at various
points has been able to find joint projects with other Federal
Executive Branch agencies and with academics and perhaps other
classes of organizations that do not come to my mind, where the
project serves a Census Bureau purpose and the other agency's
purpose.
My understanding is that the agreement currently active
between the CBO and the Census Bureau recognizes such a
purpose. So I certainly do not disagree with what you are
saying and I will, as I promised Senator Thompson, I will look
into the particulars of whether we have--where is it broken and
where can we fix it, if it is broken. I understand the
usefulness of your analogy, but the information is different in
its quality and----
Senator Bennett. I understand that too, yes.
Mr. Kincannon. All those agencies you mentioned get their
information in different means than the Census Bureau. But I
take your point and I do promise that I will personally look
into it and get back in touch with you, or the Committee as a
whole, whatever.
Senator Bennett. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
Chairman Lieberman. Thanks, Senator Bennett. Senator
Cochran.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR COCHRAN
Senator Cochran. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I
appreciated the opportunity of meeting with Mr. Kincannon prior
to the hearing and complimented him on his record of service,
and my assurance that I thought he was well qualified for this
position, maybe over-qualified. You know too much about it,
maybe.
We know that you can still bring a fresh approach and a new
sense of leadership and responsibility to the position and we
congratulate you, I congratulate you on your selection. I look
forward to working with you as head of the Census Bureau.
I really am sympathetic to the comments made by Senator
Bennett and Senator Thompson on this issue of sharing of
information. Currently as I understand it, what CBO has an
agreement with the Census Bureau for is access to the survey of
income and program participation. The Census Bureau has agreed
that they can have that access if they go to a Social Security
office where the information is held as well and work with the
Social Security Administration officials to develop a Census
purpose understanding, and then access is granted to that
information once they work out this understanding. So it has a
very limited purpose of helping to develop a public use version
of the data.
What I think the problem is, the Census Bureau restricts
the access by making the information available only at a Social
Security facility, and for such a limited purpose that CBO is
unable to really use the data they get to develop long term
models which would be of benefit to the Congress in its
consideration of Social Security or Medicare reforms, or
improvements in those programs.
One other aspect I think that ought to be considered as you
think about this, as you have said you would, the CBO is now
required by law--and we made the law here, just like we made
the law that governs you--the Congress made the law--so we made
a law when we created CBO that they would provide the same
level of confidentiality as is required by law of the agency
from whom they obtain data. So it is not like you are going to
commit some gross act of irresponsibility, if you are satisfied
that there is a Census purpose, or whatever the words of art
may be.
I think you can look to this Committee for any enforcement
mechanisms or restraints, extra legal restraints that may be
needed in order to get the kind of assurance that you need in
order to have your conscience clear that you are doing your job
and you are obeying the law. Because we think the law ought to
permit responsible sharing of information that protects the
rights of privacy of people who have given information to the
Census Bureau thinking that this will be held in confidence. I
think they can be assured that CBO will too because they are
required by law to keep it confidential just like you are
required to keep it confidential.
So that is the point that I wanted to add to the
discussion. Thank you very much.
Mr. Kincannon. That is very helpful. Thank you, sir.
Chairman Lieberman. Thanks, Senator Cochran. I have no
further questions. We are going to leave the record open for
another 2 days. There may be some questions that others will
want to submit to you and ask for your answer in writing. I
appreciate your cooperation.
Senator Akaka was unable to attend the hearing, but is
submitting testimony for the record. Senator Bunning also have
submitted a statement, which I would like to add for the
record.
[The prepared statements of Senators Akaka and Bunning
follows:]
PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR AKAKA
Mr. Chairman, I wish to express my support for the nomination of
Mr. C. Louis Kincannon to be director of the Census Bureau. I had the
opportunity to meet with Mr. Kincannon earlier this month and found him
to be well-qualified to assume the mantle of the U.S. Census.
At our meeting, we discussed the diversity of the Asian American
and Pacific Islander communities in Hawaii and the nation. He
understood that my interest in the accuracy of data collection is
heightened by the fact that Census 2000 data will be used for the next
10 years in many policy making decisions.
Because our nominee has spent so much of his professional career at
the Census Bureau, he was familiar with my efforts to disaggregate
Native Hawaiians from the Asian Pacific Islander category, which began
in 1993. My efforts were based on the inaccuracies regarding data
collection and statistics for Native Hawaiians and the fact that Native
Hawaiians were being classified with populations that had immigrated to
the United States, creating the misperception that Native Hawaiians
were immigrants to the United States rather than the indigenous peoples
of Hawaii.
Over the years, I have addressed these inaccuracies through changes
to Office of Management and Budget (OMB) Statistical Policy Directive
No. 15, which governs racial and ethnic data collection by Federal
agencies. I discussed with Mr. Kincannon how in 1997, OMB Directive 15
was revised, and that Native Hawaiians were disaggregated from the
Asian Pacific Islander category. A new category entitled, ``Native
Hawaiians and Other Pacific Islanders'' was created, which addresses
the inaccuracies in data collection for Native Hawaiians and Pacific
Islanders. Although agencies have until January 1, 2003, to make all
existing record keeping or reporting requirements consistent with the
Directive, provisions of the revised Directive took effect immediately
for all new and revised record keeping or reporting requirements that
include racial and/or ethnic information.
I have been actively encouraging all Federal agencies to begin
efforts to implement the Directive. The importance of the
implementation of this Directive to the successful tracking of Native
Hawaiian and Pacific Islander data is absolutely necessary, and I plan
to ask the GAO to determine if all 24 CFO agencies are in compliance
with the Directive.
Given my long standing concerns with the accuracy of data and the
importance I place on the decennial census, it is my hope that Mr.
Kincannon, if confirmed, will work toward hiring a Pacific Islander at
the policymaking level who could assist in addressing issues
surrounding accurate data collection and statistics for Pacific
Islanders. Thank you Mr. Chairman.
__________
PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR BUNNING
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Conducting a census is one of the oldest functions of government.
In 1790, the government's first census found that there were
approximately 3.9 million Americans, which is only slightly less than
the number of people who live in my home State of Kentucky today.
The 2000 census revealed that there are now over 281 million folks
living in this country, and I would guess that the types of questions
asked today are nothing similar to the ones asked in 1790.
As the leader of the Census Bureau, it will be Mr. Kincannon's job
to lead the agency as it continues sorting through the data from the
2000 census and begins preparing for the 2010 census.
This is a big job, and I hope--and expect--Mr. Kincannon to stay
receptive to suggestions and concerns by Members of Congress.
Also, it has been brought to my attention that the Census Bureau
has been reluctant to provide the Congressional Budget Office with
figures it needs to run some Social Security and Medicare models.
I have some questions about this, and am looking forward to hearing
your response.
Thank you.
We will try to move this as quickly as we can. I was
tempted to ask you when that next grandchild is due but it may
give us more time than we should take to bring your nomination
before the Senate.
I thank you. Anything more you would like to say before we
adjourn?
Mr. Kincannon. If you will permit, sir, I would like to say
how much I appreciate the hard work of the staff, many of whom
I have met with, personal staff and Committee staff of the
Members of this Committee. They have, without exception, worked
hard to try to understand what I know and to learn about what
the Census Bureau is doing, and I very much appreciate it.
Chairman Lieberman. You are very good to say that. We thank
you for all your years of service and your willingness to serve
yet again in this important position. Obviously there are
points on which we may disagree but I know we will go at those
disagreements in good faith and with a desire to serve the
public interest better. I thank you and the hearing is
adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 3:30 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
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