[Senate Hearing 107-492]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 107-492
NOMINATION OF THOMAS M. SULLIVAN TO BE
CHIEF COUNSEL FOR ADVOCACY AT THE
U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
OCTOBER 16-17, 2001
__________
Printed for the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/
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COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP
.........................................................
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS
----------
JOHN F. KERRY, Massachusetts, Chairman
CARL LEVIN, Michigan CHRISTOPHER S. BOND, Missouri
TOM HARKIN, Iowa CONRAD BURNS, Montana
JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
PAUL D. WELLSTONE, Minnesota OLYMPIA J. SNOWE, Maine
MAX CLELAND, Georgia MICHAEL ENZI, Wyoming
MARY LANDRIEU, Louisiana PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois
JOHN EDWARDS, North Carolina MIKE CRAPO, Idaho
MARIA CANTWELL, Washington GEORGE ALLEN, Virginia
JEAN CARNAHAN, Missouri JOHN ENSIGN, Nevada
Patricia R. Forbes, Democratic Staff Director and Chief Counsel
Emilia DiSanto, Republican Staff Director
Paul H. Cooksey, Republican Chief Counsel
C O N T E N T S
----------
Opening Statements
Page
Kerry, The Honorable John F., Chairman, Committee on Small
Business and Entrepreneurship, and a United States Senator from
Massachusetts.................................................. 1
Bond, The Honorable Christopher S., Ranking Member, Committee on
Small Business and Entrepreneurship, and a United States
Senator from Missouri.......................................... 4
Cleland, The Honorable Max, a United States Senator from Georgia. 13
Bennett, The Honorable Robert F., a United States Senator from
Utah........................................................... 15
Enzi, The Honorable Michael B., a United States Senator from
Wyoming........................................................ 15
Witness Testimony
Barreto, Hector V., Jr., administrator, U.S. Small Business
Administration, Washington, D.C................................ 4
Sullivan, Thomas S., nominee to be Chief Counsel for Advocacy,
U.S. Small Business Administration, Washington, D.C............ 22
Alphabetical Listing of Statements and Material Submitted
Barreto, Hector V., Jr.
Testimony.................................................... 4
Bennett, The Honorable Robert F.
Opening statement............................................ 15
Bond, The Honorable Christopher S.
Opening statement............................................ 4
Prepared statement........................................... 10
Cleland, The Honorable Max
Opening statement............................................ 13
Prepared statement........................................... 14
Cantwell, The Honorable Maria
Prepared statement........................................... 66
Enzi, The Honorable Michael
Opening statement............................................ 15
Prepared statement........................................... 16
Kerry, The Honorable John F.
Opening statement............................................ 1
Prepared statement........................................... 19
Nomination and confirmation forms for Mr. Sullivan........... 67
Sullivan, Thomas S.
Opening statement............................................ 22
Prepared statement........................................... 30
Resume and bio............................................... 38
Answers to Committee questions............................... 40
Letters for the Record
Brand, Stanley M., Frulla, David E., Brand & Frulla, Washington,
D.C............................................................ 48
Davis, Tom, Tom Davis Associates, LLC, Washington, D.C........... 50
Faris, Jack, president & CEO, National Federation of Independent
Business, Washington, D.C...................................... 51
George, Scott, Mid America Dental and Hearing Center, Mt. Vernon,
MO............................................................. 52
Josten, R. Bruce, executive vice president for governmental
affairs, United States Chamber of Commerce, Washington, D.C.... 53
Kennedy, The Honorable Edward M., United States Senator from
Massachusetts, Washington, D.C................................. 54
McCracken, Todd, president, National Small Business United,
Washington, D.C................................................ 55
McGuirk, Dennis, president, IPC, The Association Connecting
Electronic Industries, Washington, D.C......................... 56
Morrison, James, Ph.D., president, Small Business Exporters
Association, Washington, D.C................................... 57
Regan, Grace Cotter, executive director, Boston College Alumni
Association, Newton, MA........................................ 58
Satagaj, John S., president and general counsel, Small Business
Legislative Counsel, Washington, D.C........................... 59
Steger, Wilbur A., president, CONSAD Research Corporation,
Pittsburgh, PA................................................. 61
Swain, Frank S., Baker and Daniels, Washington, D.C.............. 62
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T0015.001
NOMINATION OF THOMAS M. SULLIVAN TO
BE CHIEF COUNSEL FOR ADVOCACY AT THE
U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION
----------
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2001
United States Senate,
Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship,
Washington, D.C.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:51 a.m., in
room SR-428A, Russell Senate Office Building, the Honoable John
F. Kerry (Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
Present: Senators Kerry, Levin, Wellstone, Cleland, Bond,
Bennett, Enzi, Allen, and Ensign.
OPENING STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE JOHN F. KERRY, CHAIRMAN,
SENATE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP, AND A
UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM MASSACHUSETTS
Chairman Kerry. The hearing will come to order.
I do want to raise a couple of issues for the
Administrator, who I appreciate being here, but who I gather
has gone downstairs for a moment. So I will wait until he gets
back up here and begin the process of introducing our nominee
and the formal part of the hearing itself.
My apologies to all parties for the delay in proceeding.
What we had, as I am sure you can imagine, is an important
meeting of Senators with the Sergeant at Arms and the FBI
personnel and health personnel and others with respect to
yesterday's incident. It was important for all of us to be
there.
This morning we are having a hearing on Mr. Thomas Sullivan
to serve as the Chief Counsel for Advocacy at the SBA. I am
particularly delighted to welcome him here, and members of his
family. His mother, Mary Kaye Sullivan I have not met. There
she is. Welcome, we are delighted to have you.
She hails from Wellesley, Massachusetts; his brother, Greg
Sullivan of Newton; and his fiancee, Ms. Juliane Carter. We are
delighted to welcome all of you.
Let me just say that the fact that your mother is from
Wellesley, and your family from Massachusetts, and you too,
will serve you extraordinarily well here today.
[Laughter.]
Chairman Kerry. This is a very important position. Witness
the fact that it is a nomination by the President of the United
States
and it does require confirmation of the U.S. Senate. It is a
job with an important mission, of helping to really facilitate
the ability of small businesses to be able to reach us and to
meld the policies of the Administration, whoever's
administration it is, and the small business community itself.
It has a wide scope of authority and responsibility. We
created it to lighten the regulatory load as well as to try to
facilitate the implementation of the Regulatory Flexibility Act
and the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act. So
Mr. Sullivan, these are important jobs and I am not going to go
through all of the aspects of the job except to say that this
is a position, when properly filled, that really facilitates
the ability of small business to do its job, and frankly
facilitates the relationship between us, the SBA, and the small
business community. So properly administered, it has an
enormous ability to be positive.
Now I need to raise an issue that regrettably was not going
to be part of this hearing at all, and it is really a sidebar,
Mr. Sullivan, to your nomination. But I want to talk directly
to the Administrator for a minute.
Mr. Administrator, I'm delighted you are here to support
this important nomination. I think Mr. Sullivan is a very fine
candidate and I think he is going to make an excellent advocate
for small business and I am confident we are going to
facilitate his confirmation, and I certainly pledge to do that.
But I want to raise a couple of serious issues with you,
with respect to where we stand in our relationship, the
relationship of this Committee and the Congress with the SBA
and the Administration. As you know, Mr. Barreto, small
businesses across the country are literally dying for help in
the aftermath of the September 11th attacks. Thousands of
people have lost their jobs because, No. 1, business
generically is bad; and No. 2, there has been a tremendous fall
off of the spin-off businesses that are affected by September
11th.
As you also know, Senator Bond and I, together, in a
bipartisan way, worked with all of the community. We did what
this legislature is supposed to do at its best, which is reach
out. We held a series of conference calls with staff because we
had trouble with people not able to fly across the country. So
we facilitated it in modern ways.
We introduced the American Small Business Emergency Relief
and Recovery Act. It has broad support. It was introduced with
the support of all the Democrats of this Committee and the
majority of the Republican members. I think there were only two
people who were not finally part of it. In the Senate as a
whole, we now have 43 co-sponsors, almost half the Senate. I
mean, I would be amazed if this is not a vote of 100 Senators,
if it was taken to a vote.
In addition to that, it was drafted with the input of small
business organizations, trade associations, SBA's lending and
counseling partners through more than 30 meetings and
conference calls. It is a good bill. It does good for people.
Despite the fact that I invited the Administration, through
you, to personally be involved in this effort weeks ago,
despite the fact that we made four separate requests for the
Agency to work with us, we have never received any word
whatsoever. No cooperation, and no input.
Yesterday, just as our bill was being cleared to be voted
out of the U.S. Senate by unanimous consent, what happens? The
Administration asks the Republican leadership to put a hold on
the bill so it cannot come up for a vote. The Administration
then calls to tell my chief of staff that they have to put a
hold on the bill because tomorrow the Administration is going
to publish some regulations to expand the disaster loan program
to the whole country.
The implication being that this partial remedy of expanding
the disaster loan somehow meets the need of the broad
assistance provided through the bill Senator Bond and I and
others have introduced.
Now I am pleased that the Administration is finally seeing
the importance of trying to do something for small business,
but after refusing to work with the Committee, a month has gone
by. Now we have a reaction that, in the judgment of many of us,
simply does not do the job that we have intended to do. Yet,
the Administration is trying to block what we have intended to
do, even though it has the majority support of the U.S. Senate
and would fly through the Congress.
Now I am not going to go through all of the story of what
small business is. We talk about it all the time, about how
half the workers in the private sector are in small businesses.
But let me just point out to you a couple of things in one
industry alone, and that is the business of chauffeured ground
transportation across the country. That industry used to employ
about 160,000 people a month ago. Since September 11, they have
laid off approximately 80,000 people. Fifty percent, half the
jobs are gone.
Now that is one of many industries in trouble. Again, I
could pose the question about the jobs that might have been
saved if we had moved sooner on this in a cooperative fashion.
I do not know what the Administration is waiting for, before it
recognizes that is a serious problem. One hundred percent
layoffs? I do not know what the measurement is that triggers a
response.
But I have received nothing in writing. I have received no
personal telecommunication, and I do not think Senator Bond
has, that has engaged us in a way that says why do you not do
this? Or why do you not do that? Or perhaps we ought to change
this, and then we would willingly support this.
But let me tell you why I think there is a big difference
between what you are now poised to say you are going to do by
regulation versus what we wanted to do legislatively. I do not
think what you are doing is going to restore confidence in the
markets at all, simply declaring emergency disaster loan
assistance.
Second, it is not clear at all that it is going to reach
enough people that need loan assistance. It does nothing for
those businesses needing help with Federal contracts delayed or
suspended, or those needing business counseling on how to stay
afloat after the attacks.
Third, you have chosen to rely on a program that was
drastically cut in your own budget this year.
Fourth, it is my understanding that the Administration does
not intend to request additional funding for September 11
disaster loans, so there is going to be a gap between what you
are offering and what you are able to offer. That is
frustrating because we thought you had finally come to the
point of understanding that we need to help these small
businesses at this point.
And last, why would you choose to rely on the most
expensive program in the SBA to deliver assistance? If you had
worked with the Committee here we could have tailored the SBA
loans program to help small businesses in ways that would cost
less. For instance, it costs about $17 to $20 per $100 to make
a disaster loan. It costs a little more than $1 to make a loan
from the 7(a) program. It costs zero, nothing to make a loan
out of the 504 program. Those are the ways in which we were
trying to approach this issue.
So Mr. Barreto, I think it is pretty important, from my
perspective, to try to clarify this so we can proceed forward
here in good faith, which is the way we certainly approach
this.
Let me turn to Senator Bond for his comment, and then we
will ask you to respond.
OPENING STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE CHRISTOPHER S. BOND, A
UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM MISSOURI
Senator Bond. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Let me just say that I agree with Senator Kerry. I was very
disturbed to learn that the measure that we had crafted on a
bipartisan basis, and continually sought the input from the SBA
and OMB staff, we wind up as we are about to pass it, the House
is primed to pass it, then the OMB has asked that the
leadership put a hold on it.
Frankly, I find it a little disingenuous. I have asked the
Republican leadership to bring S. 1499 up as soon as possible,
because I do believe that we can still work together on it. We
need to make sure we have the best assistance available.
It truly is disturbing to me that all the time we thought
we were working together, asking for input, we find out not at
the 11th hour, but 11:59, that the Administration has chosen to
go a different way and seeks to block our effort. That is a
real problem and I hope that we have learned that that is not
the way to make things happen.
So with that, Mr. Chairman, do you want to have the
Administrator respond?
Chairman Kerry. It may be that the Administrator wants to
respond.
Senator Bond. Then I want to say one or two things about
Mr. Sullivan, very briefly.
Chairman Kerry. Absolutely. He can respond and then I will
recognize you again.
STATEMENT OF HECTOR V. BARRETO, ADMINISTRATOR,
U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION
Mr. Barreto. Thank you very much.
Chairman Kerry, Senator Bond, Senator Bennett and the other
members of the Small Business Committee, thank you for inviting
me to appear before you to introduce Tom Sullivan as the
President's nominee for Chief Counsel for the Office of
Advocacy. Before I introduce Tom, with your permission, I would
like to discuss the status of our response to the September
11th tragedy.
The Administration's primary concern has been to address
the immediate needs of the most affected by the tragedy at
ground zero and the Pentagon. The President, with the support
of the American people and the world community has committed to
fight a war against terrorism. We are fighting that war on many
levels. The President has vowed to bring the evildoers to
justice while restoring confidence and prosperity to the
American people.
The Administration knows that a key factor in economic
prosperity is a strong small business community, and we can all
be proud of our Administration's response to the victims of the
disaster at ground zero. SBA staff is assisting disaster
victims at nine locations. We have deployed approximately 94
people in the New York City area, and an additional 205 people
at our Niagara Falls district office. We also have several of
our disaster loan experts from offices from around the country
temporarily assigned to New York to provide additional support
to that area.
We have worked on getting disaster relief information to
those who need it. To that end, we have contacted all elected
officials in the New York City area to provide them with
information about the SBA's program by phone, e-mail, and
regular mail. Our staff has been canvassing the neighborhoods
to talk to the small business owners suffering from this
tragedy in order to inform them about SBA assistance. We have
also provided Chinese and Spanish-speaking translators to
assist in that effort.
SBA has directly assisted 12,000 individuals and businesses
with loan applications. We have approved 346 disaster loans
totaling $36 million with an average loan size of $100,000.
The hard work of the Administration and the Agency has not
gone unnoticed. We have a disaster team that I am honored to
work with. As we have grown to expect, they have gone above and
beyond in their effort to provide relief to small businesses in
the fastest and most effective means possible. We have received
many compliments on the speed and effectiveness of our
response. Governor Pataki and Mayor Guiliani, as well as our
legislative leaders, have commented on our excellent work at
the SBA.
I think I was most touched, though, when one of our loan
recipients in New York said that we are the most ``humane
agency'' in the Government. That is quite a compliment and also
quite a charge to live up to. We intend to live up to that
charge.
In addition to the compliments, we have also heard
requests. The requests are that we expand economic injury
recovery beyond ground zero. We have heard these requests from
our legislative partners.
As Senator Kerry mentioned, Senator Bond, we have also
spoken with Congressman Velasquez. Through hearings that
Chairman Manzullo of the House Small Business Committee held.
We have heard from Governors from across the Nation
requesting that we assist small businesses in their States. We
have also heard from small business industry representatives,
and small business owners themselves.
I want you to know that the SBA has heard that message and
the Administration has heard that message, and we are working
together to find the most effective and efficient method to
assist small businesses.
The SBA's programs have evolved over the years to meet
these needs. The SBA's disaster assistance loan program is the
primary Federal program for funding recovery for private sector
disaster victims. This program offers a low-interest rate loan,
not to exceed 4 percent, as compared to non-disaster loans
which are at 5 percent, 6 percent, or sometimes a greater
percentage rate. The term of those loans can be for as long as
30 years, providing greater flexibility to small business
owners, especially at this time when they need it the most.
We believe the economic injury recovery loan addresses
precisely the type of injury that Congress considered when it
developed this product. And we have been working on a proposal
with the Administration. Through the expansion of a recovery
proposal, we would (A), expand recovery to small businesses
located outside of ground zero through our existing disaster
loan program. (B), we would provide loans to businesses that
have been directly injured by the September 11th event, and the
Federal actions taken as a result of those events. And (C), we
can accomplish the expansion through a change to our
regulations. By making a regulatory change instead of a
legislative change, we can provide the swiftest and most cost-
effective and efficient response to small business.
We continue to work with the Administration to refine this
proposal and we hope that we will have a more definitive
statement with respect to this aspect of the economic recovery
shortly.
At this time, it gives me great pleasure to introduce Tom
Sullivan, the President's nominee for Chief Counsel for the
Office of Advocacy. Part of my commitment, when I appeared
before you for my own confirmation, was to work with the
President to put the right people in key positions at the SBA,
so that we have the best team available to meet the needs of
small businesses.
I believe Tom Sullivan is the best qualified person for
Chief Counsel for Advocacy. His experience at the National
Federation of Independent Business Owners demonstrates his
commitment to small business. His work as regulatory policy
counsel put Government agencies on notice that the hundreds of
thousands of members of the NFIB needed the Government to be
more responsive to the unique nature of small business.
Prior to his tenure at NFIB, Tom worked at the EPA and at
the Justice Department. This experience will prove to be
invaluable as he works to ensure that all Government agencies
help small business to succeed rather than bury them under the
mandates and paperwork.
Mr. Chairman, I fully support Tom's nomination and look
forward to working with him in supporting small business
throughout our Nation. Thank you.
Chairman Kerry. Thank you, Mr. Barreto. I am going to go
back to Senator Bond in a moment, but let me come back, if we
can. Essentially, the statement you just gave is a prepared
statement and not, frankly, a full answer to the question that
Senator Bond and I asked.
In many ways, what you are telling the Committee
indirectly, without quite answering my question directly, is
that you are simply going to stick by the disaster loan and
that is it, nothing more? You do not intend to work with us and
that is where we are; is that correct?
Mr. Barreto. No, sir.
Chairman Kerry. Is it fair to say that you did not really
address our question?
Mr. Barreto. Well, I hope that my statement articulated
what the response of the SBA has been, not only to the
disaster----
Chairman Kerry. I think you have done a laudable job. I am
not here to question whether at ground zero you have been
present. I am glad you have, and I think you have done a
laudable job. That is not the issue here.
But this is much broader across the country than just
ground zero. What we are talking about is the American
response. You do not have enough people. You do not have enough
loan officers or capacity or money in the disaster program to
address the needs of the Nation.
That is what we are trying to do. We are trying to kick all
small business in to gear here and provide the capacity to sort
of privatize out, if you will, the ability to be able to meet
the response. That is how you do it through those other
programs.
I guess the question is, again, why is the Administration
blocking our bipartisan effort to do that?
Mr. Barreto. Senator, as we discussed when we met, we have
received numerous proposals for response. One of the things
that we are clear about is that there is an outpouring of
commitment and care for small businesses across the country. As
I have mentioned to you, we have received no less than six
proposals from Congress, industry, representatives, Governors.
We have taken a very serious look at those proposals, and it
has taken us a little while to go through those and compare the
provisions of those different proposals.
The reg change that I described is not to replace any of
those other efforts. But one of the things that I know that you
are committed to, and this Committee is committed to, is how do
we help small business on a national basis in the quickest,
most effective, most efficient manner possible?
Chairman Kerry. We have designed that and we have had no
input from you to the contrary. We have worked with our House
colleagues and they are prepared to pass the bill, too.
We also have reached out to Governors and to the various
trade associations and interested parties. I am sure they are
not communicating one thing to you and one thing to us with
respect to these needs.
Mr. Barreto. One of the things that we wanted to be very
clear about when we looked into this reg change is to make sure
that our folks that we have in our disaster team were prepared
to look at this and to respond to this on a nationwide level.
We have gotten assurances from our disaster folks that they
will be able to do this, that we have the right personnel, that
we will be able to respond to these small business needs on a
nationwide level.
One of the things that we are also very glad about is that
these loans are for 4 percent, and sometimes less than 4
percent, over a 30-year term. For a lot of the small businesses
that are hurting right now, that is a very, very important
proposal for them.
Chairman Kerry. I do not question that. It is a good one
and if it is that good, the question is then begged why you cut
the amount of money available for it in the budget. But that
having happened, we are now trying to stopgap it and make up
for the fact that there is a limited pool there. So we have to
do more than just that.
I would like to find a way, like Senator Bond, I would like
to get this thing passed. It is 1 month later. A lot of these
companies, their credit cannot be extended. They have got to
make a decision. Are they going to stay alive or are they not?
They cannot afford to sit around while the U.S. Congress is
bickering, which incidentally, we are not.
Now if you have a difference with this bill I would like
you to come back this afternoon as the Administration and tell
us what it is. We will sit there and work with you. We are
prepared to work with you. We haven't even heard from you.
We would like to pass it. I do not know, Senator Bond, if
you think there is a better way to try to do it?
Senator Bond. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Administrator, I think we
are talking at two different levels. Nobody disagrees with your
praise for the work that your people have done on the ground.
There may be things you can do by regulation. But we have
listened to all the groups, we have responded to our
constituents, and we have come together on a bipartisan basis,
as I think we have emphasized this Committee works. We put
together what we think is a sound, bipartisan solution. We have
asked SBA staff, we have asked OMB for their comments on it.
Nothing.
Then we find, when the House is ready to pass it, we are
ready to pass it, you put a hold on it. Nobody has told us what
is wrong with the bill. If you have got a better way to do it,
do not keep it a secret. This is a really shaky start, because
we are ready, we have been ready to work with you on a
bipartisan basis, which is the way we get things done around
here.
I hope that this is an experience we will not experience
again. Somebody said experience is what you get when you
expected to get something else. I expected to get something
else in working with the SBA.
With that, I think we have made our point. At least I hope
we have.
Mr. Barreto. Yes, you have, Senator. I just want to State
that our relationship and our working relationship is something
that we appreciate very much and we are committed to continue
working with you.
I agree with you that the timing of this regulation could
have been a lot better. We will work with you to make sure that
this information is passing back and forth in a very timely
basis. I think that we are in a truly unique situation. The SBA
has never had to respond to a disaster of this type. There has
never been a disaster of this type.
One thing that I am clear about is that there is tremendous
commitment from this Committee, from the House Committee, from
the business organizations that I have been meeting with, and
leaders all across the country, to do the right thing for small
business. I want you to know that we are committed to the same
thing, and I thank you for the opportunity to be here and to
make this statement.
Chairman Kerry. Mr. Administrator, this will be the final
word on it and then we will move to the Sullivan nomination. It
is not the timing of the regulation. I think we could care less
about the timing of the regulation. That is your right and
prerogative and more power to you if you are going to
facilitate the extension of those loans. We are all for it.
It is the blocking of our bill at the same time, which
sends a completely different message. One for the other. That
has got to stop. You have got to either lift that or tell us
what you need changed immediately because there are a lot of
other tools here in the U.S. Senate and there are a lot of
other things the Administration needs to move forward on. We
are intent on trying to get this help to business people.
As Senator Bond just said, if you have a better way to do
it, terrific. There is no pride of authorship here. We think
what we have is pretty good, but if you can improve on it,
terrific. But I am not going to have a dark of night hold at
the same time as people are talking about cooperating. That is
unacceptable.
Let me let Senator Bond speak.
Senator Bond. Mr. Chairman, thank you. I will abbreviate my
comments but I do want to extend a warm welcome on a cloudy day
to Tom Sullivan, his fiancee, family members, and friends.
I think he is a very qualified candidate for the position
of Chief Counsel of Advocacy. His experience and track record
representing small businesses during his years at the NFIB make
him superbly qualified to handle the important role.
Tom, I really look forward to working closely with you as
you tackle the hard work of representing vigorously the views
and interests of small business.
I am going to put in one very brief plug for a measure that
I have introduced with respect to the Regulatory Flexibility
Act and the SBREFA requirements. GAO has told us that the term
significant economic impact to a substantial number of small
entities need to be clearly defined. I have introduced a
measure called Agency Accountability Act, AAA, which would give
the Chief Counsel the power to conduct a rulemaking to define
those critical terms. The Act would also increase the list of
agencies required to conduct small business review panels. We
think the process is working well but can work better.
We look forward to working with you on that. I am confident
that we can do a great deal for small business.
Mr. Chairman, I have to apologize and excuse myself,
because I had scheduled another meeting in just a few minutes.
But we look forward to working with Mr. Sullivan.
[The prepared statement of Senator Bond follows.]
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Chairman Kerry. Thank you very much.
Let me just say to the Members of the Committee, I promise
I want to try to expedite this nomination. It will probably,
just because of the complications in our schedules this
morning, with everything that is going on, be hard to get the
quorum here now. But I will try to convene a quorum off the
floor of the Senate at the first vote available. If all members
could be alert to that, and we will try to have a vote in the
President's Room off the Senate floor at the appropriate time.
Senator Cleland.
OPENING STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE MAX CLELAND,
A UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM GEORGIA
Senator Cleland. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would just like to thank you and the Ranking Member for
your introduction of S. 1499, the American Small Business
Emergency Relief and Recovery Act of 2001. I do think this is a
hallmark piece of legislation which will go a long way toward
assisting the small businesses which were directly and
indirectly affected by the events of September 11th.
Congratulations on that, Mr. Chairman. As an original
cosponsor, I look forward to its speedy action before the full
Senate.
We are in an emergency. We are, I think, expected by the
American people to act for their recovery in a very judicious
and expedited way. So I endorse the concern of the Chair and
Ranking Member about why this legislation was put on hold by
the Administration. I look forward to its quick, early and easy
passage.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
[The prepared statement of Senator Cleland follows.]
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Chairman Kerry. Thank you very much, Senator Cleland.
Senator Bennett.
OPENING STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE ROBERT F. BENNETT, A UNITED
STATES SENATOR FROM UTAH
Senator Bennett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was hoping to
make this comment before the Administrator left, but Mr.
Sullivan, if you would carry it back to him, my only comment in
listening to this exchange goes back to what my professors used
to tell me in college, which was read the question. You may
understand all there is about the subject, but read the
question.
In my view, the Administrator did not hear what the
Chairman was saying and he was answering a different question.
He was answering it very well, but it was the wrong question.
So as you deal with this Committee, listen to what the Chairman
says and respond specifically to the Chairman and we will not
have any problems.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Kerry. Thank you, Senator Bennett.
Senator Enzi.
OPENING STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE MICHAEL ENZI,
A UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM WYOMING
Senator Enzi. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just ask
unanimous consent that a copy of my statement be in the record.
Chairman Kerry. Without objection, your full statement will
appear in the record.
[The prepared statement of Senator Enzi follows:]
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Chairman Kerry. Mr. Sullivan, you have been well introduced
to events in Washington this morning in ways you probably did
not anticipate, but I certainly reiterate my welcome to you. We
are really delighted to have you here, and I look forward to
your testimony.
[The prepared statement of Senator Kerry follows.]
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STATEMENT OF THOMAS S. SULLIVAN, NOMINEE FOR CHIEF COUNSEL FOR
ADVOCACY, U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION
Mr. Sullivan. Good morning, Chairman Kerry, Senator Bond,
and distinguished members of the Committee. It is an honor to
appear before you as the President's choice to head the U.S.
Small Business Administration's Office of Advocacy.
It is touching to be surrounded by so many of my friends,
colleagues in the small business community, and family. I would
like to introduce my mother, Mary Sullivan and my brother Greg
Sullivan. They flew down from Boston to share in this
incredible honor for me. My other siblings, Barbara Roehrig in
Denver, and BZ Honan in Marblehead are not able to be here.
Last, I would like to introduce my fiancee, Juliane Carter, and
thank her for being here with me this morning.
I would like to briefly summarize my background and outline
some exciting opportunities that await me if I am confirmed as
Chief Counsel for Advocacy. In addition, Mr. Chairman, I ask
that my complete statement be included in the record.
Chairman Kerry. So ordered.
Mr. Sullivan. I did not grow up in a small business. My dad
was an attorney and my mom worked in hospital administration in
Waltham and Mt. Auburn hospitals. I did grow up in the shadow
of admirable public service. I am proud of my mother's devotion
to making the town of Wellesley, Massachusetts a good place to
raise a family. Her countless hours of civic meetings and long
nights at our locally-elected legislative body, the Wellesley
Town Meeting, rubbed off on me.
While in law school, I followed in her footsteps and was
elected to represent our neighbors in my precinct at the
Wellesley Town Meeting. This fascination of public service and
policy development led me to Washington, D.C.
My small business perspective comes from the past several
years working for NFIB. My view of what it is like to own and
run a small business has been shaped by my interaction with
people like Barbara Williams, who owned a small restaurant in
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania and Mike Nobis, who runs a small
printing company in Quincy, Illinois. Both Barbara and Mike
fell prey to the unfairness of a Federal law that was supposed
to clean up polluted sites, but instead sometimes victimized
innocent small businesses.
Bringing their perspective to Washington is what NFIB does
best, and through that work I gained a great appreciation for
what it takes to own a small business and how frustrating it
can be when dealing with rigid Federal laws that oftentimes
ignore the consequences in small business.
I have not been able to help all those small business
owners who have called or who I have met while working at NFIB.
What is so tremendously exciting for me today is the
opportunity I have, if confirmed, to help thousands, if not
millions, more small employers.
How can the Office of Advocacy help millions of small
employers? I see three distinct ways. First, Advocacy can
recognize and improve the human capital of the office. SBA's
Office of Advocacy hosts some of the finest public servants in
the government. Devoted economists, attorneys, and staff in the
States and here in Washington have given the office the
credibility and stature it deserves. Recognizing and
highlighting the talent in the office is the first opportunity
faced by the new Chief Counsel.
It is not enough for the fine work produced by Advocacy to
be simply put on a website. Academic institutions and think
tanks across the country deserve to benefit from the wealth of
information and expertise the Office of Advocacy has to offer.
Staff from Advocacy should be the resource for small business
policy formation.
Second, the Office of Advocacy should stand on the
principle that the formulation of sound policy is based on
solid information. My goal, if confirmed, is to continue to
bring Advocacy's research to the attention of decisionmakers
here in Washington and bring renewed emphasis on getting that
information outside the beltway. Advocacy's quality work
belongs in the hands of every scholar who is studying small
business and in every State legislator's hands who needs
information before voting on bills that affect small business.
The research products coming out of the Office of Advocacy
belong in academia and in the halls of governments across the
country.
Third, Advocacy's involvement early in the regulatory
process can improve the culture in regulatory agencies. Laws
like the Regulatory Flexibility Act and the Small Business
Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act have produced results. The
Office of Advocacy estimated cost savings of $3.4 billion last
year as a direct result of differences made in regulatory
policy as it affects small business.
In real small business terms, $3.4 billion equates to an
additional 1.3 million employees working in small businesses,
receiving employer-sponsored health care. That is a positive
sign and proof that Advocacy's role in the regulatory process
is a critical one. Advocacy has helped ensure that small
business saved money. Money that could be used to hire
additional employees, buy new or upgrade existing computers, or
provide employees with health care coverage. Most importantly,
these cost savings were achieved without sacrificing
environmental protection or worker safety.
Bringing the voice of small business into agency
deliberations early in the process makes a difference.
Advocacy's goal should be to convince agencies that it makes a
positive difference.
Highlighting the human capital within SBA's Office of
Advocacy, bringing their research outside the beltway, and
helping change the regulatory culture of Federal agencies and
departments provide a framework under which small business can
benefit from Ad- vocacy's success.
These challenges may seem monumental, but they are worth
it. The confidence of President Bush, SBA Administrator Hector
Barreto, this Committee, and my friends and colleagues, has
impressed upon me what an honor this nomination truly is. If
confirmed, I look forward to working with you to keep the
entrepreneurial spirit of this country alive and well, through
an Office of Advocacy devoted to ensuring a bright future for
small business.
That concludes my statement and I would be happy to answer
any questions the Committee may have.
Chairman Kerry. Thank you very much, Mr. Sullivan. It was a
good statement and I appreciate your articulation of the
possibilities of your job.
Let me just ask you, if I may, a number of pro forma
questions before I ask you a few substantive ones about
policies, et cetera. First of all, is there any conflict of
interest that you are aware of that might prevent you from
properly being able to carry out your responsibilities?
Mr. Sullivan. There are none, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Kerry. In order to be able to make that statement,
have you had to divest yourself of any interest of any kind
that the Committee should be aware of? Or is there anything you
need to recuse yourself from in order to perform these
responsibilities?
Mr. Sullivan. I have signed an ethics agreement with the
senior ethics official at the SBA that require me to recuse
myself from involvement with the NFIB Legal Foundation for 1
year. Other than that, there are no other situations that I
should bring before the Committee.
Chairman Kerry. What is the theory of the timeframe on the
NFIB Foundation?
Mr. Sullivan. Well, I am currently employed as executive
director of the NFIB Legal Foundation. It is my understanding,
after consulting with the head ethics official at SBA, that a
1-year recusal from contact with my current employer is the
standards ethics agreement.
Chairman Kerry. I was just curious as to how they arrived
at the 1 year. I understand what they are trying to do. I
assume they feel that after 1 year you are purged of any bad or
good instincts you may have?
[Laughter.]
Mr. Sullivan. I believe that the SBA senior ethics official
was acting within the guidelines that he is comfortable with. I
want to assure the Committee that as situations arise where
there are questions of how to conduct my activities, I will
consult regularly with the senior ethics official.
Chairman Kerry. Fair enough. So it is essentially a
discretionary fixing of the time period?
Mr. Sullivan. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kerry. Do you also agree that you will appear
before any duly constituted committee of the U.S. Congress when
requested, if confirmed? That any member of your staff
appropriately asked to appear will also do so?
Mr. Sullivan. Yes, Mr. Chairman. It is my intention to
appear before committees of Congress as requested. It is also
my full intention to engage regularly with both sides of the
aisle on the House and Senate on a regular basis on issues of
importance to small business.
Chairman Kerry. Second, do you agree that you will yourself
reply to any requests for information of any duly constituted
committee of Congress and/or your staff also will do so?
Mr. Sullivan. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Kerry. Thank you very much.
You have been appointed by the President, introduced by the
Administrator, and that is the normal course of events. That is
appropriate. But how do you guarantee to the interested small
business community that in this role, and it is a question I
would ask not necessarily of you but of any ``independent''
office of advocacy for any particular agency, how you guarantee
that level of independence that is so critical to the
credibility of the office? And frankly, to its functioning?
Mr. Sullivan. How do I guarantee the independence of the
Office of Advocacy? I think first, I want to assure the
Committee that I am answerable foremost to the views of small
business owners that I am able to represent to the best of my
ability if confirmed as Chief Counsel.
As far as procedural independence, the Office of Advocacy
is unique in the sense that while housed at the SBA, the Office
of Advocacy has independence from testimony and opinions stated
before congressional committees that do not necessarily have to
be cleared through the Office of Management and Budget
clearance process.
The other way that procedurally the office has a statutory
level of independence is the independent hiring authority.
Through those levels of independence, the Office is able to
both maintain its independence to effectively advocate for
small business, while at the same time, working within a
partnership with the Administrator and the Administration to
best represent small business owners.
Chairman Kerry. Do you feel prepared to tell either the OMB
or the Administrator or the White House itself that you think
they are on the wrong course, if they happen to be, in terms of
small business interest?
Mr. Sullivan. It is my understanding that Administrator
Barreto fully expects from me, if confirmed as Chief Counsel,
to represent to him and to the Administration the unbiased
views of small business owners. To the extent those conflict
with policy decisions underway or already made by the
Administration or Hector Barreto, that is an understanding that
he is willing to deal with on a daily basis, as long as I am
presenting him the independent, unbiased view.
Chairman Kerry. What about the resources within the Office?
Have you had a chance to analyze it and make a judgment as to
whether you have the resources necessary to perform the
functions?
Mr. Sullivan. It is my understanding, Mr. Chairman, and
this is elaborated in my written statement, that the Office of
Advocacy has the best and brightest. Through that, through
recognizing, I believe I referred to in my written statement,
the human capital in that office, that will encourage future
best and brightest to come and work at the Office of Advocacy.
To the extent that I have undergone a thorough review of
responsibilities and personnel, I have not. That certainly is a
priority, once in place. I can assure the Chairman that if
there are gaps in the resources needed or additional help that
can be done legislatively, I will come before the Committee and
make those requests and engage in a dialog to make sure that
the Office of Advocacy can accomplish its mission with the
resources that it has.
Chairman Kerry. So you are going to make that judgment as
you go down the road, essentially?
Mr. Sullivan. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Kerry. The small business community of the country
is a diverse community. We have come, in this Committee, sort
of by consensus almost always--again we work very much on a
bipartisan basis. Over the years we have developed fairly
strong support for some programs which, on occasion, are
ideologically hot spots, and there have been pressures. Now you
are coming from one business entity that, on occasion, has
clashed with the concept of SBA itself. We have received some
inquiries about that.
Obviously, I have grown to be comfortable with that. Others
on the Committee, people are prepared to proceed forward. But
help those people who might worry that something they fought
for over 10, 15, 20 years which is now a part of the SBA
program will also be represented by you and advocated for by
you?
Mr. Sullivan. Mr. Chairman, the organization that is my
current employer, NFIB, has historically prioritized for small
business owners functions within SBA. When asked policy
positions or votes on key pieces of legislation, NFIB only
represents the consensus views of its membership of 600,000
small business owners. So to the extent that there have been
issues related to the functioning of SBA, my understanding that
NFIB has asked Congress to prioritize within SBA because that
is what the 600,000 members of NFIB have told the organization
is their position.
It is also my further understanding that historically NFIB
has prioritized the Office of Advocacy as an extremely valuable
resource for small business owners. So that, in part, makes it
such an honor for me to appear before the Committee this
morning, recognizing in my current employer how important the
Office of Advocacy is to small business directly.
With regards to how I will act as Chief Counsel of
Advocacy, again I would like to assure the Committee that I am
absolutely beholden to the non-biased views of small business
owners. That will determine my policy decisions and directions
taken before this Committee and before different policymakers
around the country.
Chairman Kerry. How important is the SBA itself, in your
judgment?
Mr. Sullivan. I do not know, Mr. Chairman. In answer to the
question of my current position and my current understanding of
SBA again, it has been NFIB's position to prioritize programs.
And in that prioritization, they have highlighted the
effectiveness of the Office of Advocacy. Senator Bennett did
say ``read the question,'' and I want to be responsive to the
Committee. But from a prioritization perspective, my focal
point as one of the best parts of Government, and the best part
certainly within SBA is the Office of Advocacy.
Chairman Kerry. But stepping outside the Office of
Advocacy, once you are in the Office of Advocacy you are not
advocating for the Office of Advocacy, you are advocating for
the interests of small business. Small business finds the SBA
as its primary governmental contact and a very critical linkage
on a whole series of programs. The STTR, SBIC, SBIR, 504, so
forth, lending.
What does your either analysis or study or experience tell
you about those programs and the SBA's stewardship of them?
Mr. Sullivan. Well Mr. Chairman, I have not conducted
analysis of SBA programs. It is my understanding that the Chief
Counsel position is charged with bringing the resources, the
helpful resources of the Government, to small businesses across
the country.
Now to the extent that the helpful parts of Government,
whether it be loan assistance or small business compliance
assistance centers housed within the Environmental Protection
Agency, or voluntary cooperative compliance systems within
OSHA, within Department of Labor, it is my understanding that
the Office of Advocacy is charged with making sure that small
business owners across the country have access to those
programs, understand and can use those programs.
So to the extent that there is a governmentwide analysis of
what is actually helpful to small business, it will be my job,
if confirmed, to make sure that small businesses know about the
programs that are helpful, whether it be in SBA or EPA or IRS.
That is something that I am looking forward to if confirmed.
Chairman Kerry. But you have no opinion, as you approach
this job, about the capacity of the SBA itself?
Mr. Sullivan. No, I do not, as I approach the job. I know
that the Office of Advocacy does analyze trends and programs
governmentwide that are helpful for small employers. I know
there is reluctance of the Office of Advocacy to do a self-
examination of the Small Business Administration. If confirmed,
I actually would share that caution, that the Office of
Advocacy not look exclusively at SBA programs to analyze their
benefit or detriment to small employers, because then you trend
very slowly into the Inspector General function of the Agency.
Chairman Kerry. Well, in the past, the Office of Advocacy
has been deeply involved in making sure that small businesses
get their fair share of Federal procurement. Specifically, that
the Small Business Innovation Research program and technology
transfer programs work well. Is it your intention to stay
involved in those programs and in that effort?
Mr. Sullivan. Yes, Mr. Chairman. Sorry to interrupt. It is
my intention to keep active on those programs.
Chairman Kerry. Whenever you say yes you can interrupt all
you want.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Sullivan. Thank you. In particular, the Federal
procurement example is a good one to show how the Office of
Advocacy can be successful, because you've got the research
component of the Office of Advocacy that analyzed Federal
procurement trends. That research showed a disappointing trend
as it affects small business. Then Advocacy didn't stop there.
The Advocacy component of the office then took that research to
the Federal Government, to the Defense Department and said
``let us think outside of the box to cure this problem with
Federal procurement and small business.''
It is my understanding they have been very successful in
thinking outside the box in getting small business tied into
the appropriate ways, into the Defense Department, so that they
can get the percentage of small business involvement higher for
Federal procurement. That is a perfect example of one of the
strengths of the Office of Advocacy.
Chairman Kerry. What about the goal of Federal Government
purchasing? We have set a goal of trying to achieve 23 percent
of goods and services being purchased from small business.
Regrettably, we have failed to meet that goal, the
Administrations previously, on either party has failed to meet
that goal for either women or small disadvantaged businesses,
HUBZones and veteran-owned businesses. What do you intend to do
to try to make sure that the Government achieves those goals?
Mr. Sullivan. Mr. Chairman, it is my intention, if
confirmed, to continue to work within the Government to impress
upon those officials who are in charge of Federal procurement
that it makes sense for the economy to get that percentage of
small business involvement up.
Chairman Kerry. Good. We would appreciate that. I think it
does make sense and I think it is an enormously important way
to lift small companies ultimately into big company status and
share some of the benefits of the Federal procurement process.
Should this Committee and the small business community in
general read anything particular in the fact that while at the
NFIB Legal Foundation you filed four amicus briefs, whereas in
the whole history of Advocacy the Office has filed only one
amicus brief? Do you view that as a role you will now assume in
the Advocacy Office? Is this a different approach that you
have?
Mr. Sullivan. Mr. Chairman, my experience as head of the
NFIB Legal Foundation should assure this Committee and others
that I will approach the amicus role in a similar manner. Here
is what I mean. Litigation should be an absolute last resort.
It is expensive, it is time consuming and, from a small
business owners' perspective, it can be devastating.
The NFIB acts effectively because it advocates its
positions in State legislatures, here in Congress, and in
regulatory agencies. The idea of filing an amicus brief to
represent those views in Federal court is used incredibly
sparingly. I would like to urge this Committee that I will
exercise similar restraint in my role as confirmed as Chief
Counsel.
The benefit of that office, in regards to litigation, is
the cooperative nature of dealing with Federal agencies behind
the scenes to achieve regulatory cost savings with the threat
of litigation hanging over all of the parties' heads. But it is
not my intention to exercise that threat of amicus authority to
the detriment of valuable discussions that actually have
resulted in significant regulatory savings over the years.
Chairman Kerry. Thank you, Mr. Sullivan.
Senator Enzi.
Senator Enzi. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Once again, I thank
you for bringing this hearing up and the promise of the vote,
when we have the vote later. I think you were most thorough in
your questioning. The only thing you probably left out were
those Massachusetts connections that he has.
[Laughter.]
Senator Enzi. All of us on this Committee, of course,
because of the Committee title, are extremely interested in
small business. I may be more interested than any of the other
States, because in Wyoming there is no business that is
headquartered in Wyoming that would meet big business
requirements according to our small business definition. So we
are extremely concerned, and not about those ones that are up
around the 500 employee one, because again even on ones that
come in from out of state, we do not have many of those.
I try to maintain the definition more down around the
person who owns the business being the one who sweeps the
sidewalks, cleans the toilets, does the accounting, and waits
on customers, and not necessarily in that order.
I do appreciate the efforts that you have made in the past
on SBREFA. Giving people in small business a voice in the
regulation process of the Federal Government, I think, is
extremely important, not just from getting the regulation right
but making sure that there is a reflection of the difference
between a big business and a small business when it comes to
dealing with these. Also recognizing that if we get it right
for small business it usually helps out big business, too.
I thank you for your willingness to serve in this position
and I really do not have any questions for you. Thank you.
Chairman Kerry. Thank you very much, Senator Enzi. You
should be advised that I paid all the deference I could
conceivably summon up to Massachusetts prior to your arriving
here.
Let me just say, as we close, I do not have any further
questions. I thank you for your testimony this morning. Mr.
Sullivan, rest assured, you have done well. If I could just
say, maybe it is that Jesuit training up there at BC or
something. But we are delighted to try to proceed forward as
rapidly as we can. I hope that we can perhaps report it out of
Committee today. It depends a lot on the floor schedule. But I
am confident that quickly this week we should be able to move
it forward.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Sullivan follows:]
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Chairman Kerry. I will leave the record open just for a few
more hours, in case there is anybody else who wants to submit a
statement and then we will close it by the time of our next
meeting, whenever that occurs, this afternoon or otherwise.
We stand adjourned. Thank you.
[Whereupon, at 11:51 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
COMMITTEE BUSINESS
----------
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 17, 2001
United States Senate,
Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship,
Washington, D.C.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 4:15 p.m., in
room 216, U.S. Capitol Building, the Honorable John F. Kerry
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
Present: Senators Kerry, Levin, Harkin, Wellstone, Cleland,
Landrieu, Edwards, Bond, Bennett, Snowe, Enzi, Allen and
Ensign.
Chairman Kerry. The Small Business Committee is convened
for the purpose of voting out the nomination of Thomas Sullivan
to be chief counsel for advocacy at the U.S. Small Business
Administration. The clerk will call the roll.
The Clerk. Mr. Levin.
Senator Levin. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Levin, aye.
Mr. Harkin.
Senator Harkin. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Harkin, aye.
Mr. Lieberman.
Chairman Kerry. Aye by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Lieberman, aye by proxy.
Mr. Wellstone.
Senator Wellstone. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Wellstone, aye.
Mr. Cleland.
Senator Cleland. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Cleland, aye.
Ms. Landrieu.
Senator Landrieu. Aye.
The Clerk. Ms. Landrieu, aye.
Mr. Edwards.
Senator Edwards. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Edwards, aye.
Ms. Cantwell.
Chairman Kerry. Aye by proxy.
The Clerk. Ms. Cantwell, aye by proxy.
Mrs. Carnahan.
Chairman Kerry. Aye by proxy.
The Clerk. Mrs. Carnahan, aye by proxy.
Mr. Bond.
Senator Bond. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Bond, aye.
Mr. Burns.
Senator Bond. Aye by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Burns, aye by proxy.
Mr. Bennett.
Senator Bennett. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Bennett, aye.
Ms. Snowe.
Senator Snowe. Aye.
The Clerk. Ms. Snowe, aye.
Mr. Enzi.
Senator Enzi. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Enzi, aye.
Mr. Fitzgerald.
Senator Bond. Aye by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Fitzgerald, aye by proxy.
Mr. Crapo.
Senator Bond. Aye by proxy.
The Clerk. Mr. Crapo, aye by proxy.
Mr. Allen.
Senator Allen. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Allen, aye.
Mr. Ensign.
Senator Ensign. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Ensign, aye.
Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Kerry. Aye.
The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, aye.
Nineteen ayes, zero nays.
Chairman Kerry. I have letters in support of the nominee to
be included in the record.
[The information referred to follows:]
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Chairman Kerry. Thank you very much.
[Whereupon, at 4:34 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
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